Bossier Parish in Action?

[LaFireEducator]

http://www.ksla.com/Global/story.asp?S=14286312

Bossier Parish Fire Department provided mutual aid for Benton Fire units after an off duty officer alerted them to the fire.

That is incorrect information. We did not provide mutual aid.

In fact, there is no such thing as the "Bossier Parish Fire Department". Bossier Parish, outside of the city, is divided into 9 independant fire districts.

Mutual aid was provided by Bossier City Fire.

[LaFireEducator]

You should reread the responses.

No one is using this fire to discredit him, but the fact he responded to a building he claimed he never would respond to.

As stated before, we did not roll to this incident. Was not reuested, and likely would not have had the avaialble resources due to fires in our own district if we were.

Here you go:



Thats a direct response to there never being fires in second stories and ladders not being capable of deployment due to building construction, etc







Not once did anyone say anything about THIS operation, just the fact that there exist buildings where advanced (or basic depending on the side of the argument) ladder skills could be used and trained upon.

We have one small apartment complex in our district. Benton has at least 7, possibly more. I have no idea how Benton prepares for this, but we simply do not have the exposure to 2nd story operations that many department's, including Benton, does.

[edpmedic]

Point 1: This is not our first due. Benton has seen far more groweth in terms of commercial structures and apartment complexes due to thier geography in relationship to Bossier City. Over the past 5 years Benton's commercial base has tripled while our's has stayed almost unchanged. Our district and Benton's district are very dissimiliar.

In addition, Benton's residental growth has been in large, high dollor homes. Our residental growth has been in smaller site built homes and manufactured double wides.

Benton does operate a ladder. We don't , and have no pressing need to acquire one.

Point 2: No , we do not do VES, and though we did some training on it last year, it has not been adopted by the department as a recognized tactic.

Point 3: Yes, we have a few strip malls, but certainly not enough to justify the purchase of an aerial when the cost, including mainatainence, and training requirements are weighed against the frequency of commercial fires. It's simply a matter of economics.

I'm curious as to why your area's departments don't have a solid mutual aid program, maybe something like we have in NOVA/MD? You just said that you had all of your resources committed to several brush fires, and that Benton needed to release units from a large brush fire of their own to work the apartment fire. If any other incidents would have deveolped in the meantime, any citizens involved would be SOL. Is that fair to the residents of these districts? Is it a matter of the chiefs being territorial about their districts?

[tajm611]

Wasn't trying to argue, just showing you that most were under the same impression. You might want to take a look at comments on the fire that have statements from "firefighters" from your department that responded

[LaFireEducator]

35' Extension Ladder: - $1300.00+
Ferrara (since we're in Louisiana) - $300,000 -$500,000.00
Custom Ladder Truck
LAFireeducator eating Crow - Priceless!

Not eating anything here.

Benton's area is nothing like our's especially in this atra which abuts the city and is quite built-up when compared to our response area.

In addition, Benton had made a committment to hiring personnel and running with a fairly minimum staff (7 on-duty) while not recruiting or retaining volunteer personnel, which makes them venuarble to a second incident when the majority of thier paid staff is tied up on another major incident in another part of thier district, like was the case with the brush fire they were working.

Our department has made a committment to recrutitng and retaining volunteer personnel while hiring very little paid staff, which allows us to handle multiple incidents far easier than Benton.

Again, we have no pressing need for an aerial and would be hard pressed to justify the cost v. number of commercial incidents we run.

Benton already has a ladder truck.

[LaFireEducator]

I'm curious as to why your area's departments don't have a solid mutual aid program, maybe something like we have in NOVA/MD? You just said that you had all of your resources committed to several brush fires, and that Benton needed to release units from a large brush fire of their own to work the apartment fire. If any other incidents would have deveolped in the meantime, any citizens involved would be SOL. Is that fair to the residents of these districts? Is it a matter of the chiefs being territorial about their districts?

As somebody who has moved here from areas, both in northern VT and upstate NY, that has, and have ahd for a number of years, strong working mutual aid systems, I will give you my perspective.

Yes, there are terrorital issues in a few places in this parish, as well as neighboring parishes. The area of the parish that I work in was that way up until a few years ago until my department, as well as the neighboring two, started working together. We now have a combined tech response team and are working on a joint haz-mat team. The Chiefs communicate regualrly. In fact, we had a fire at an explosives facility yesterday and the 3 departments, plus one from a neighboring parish, worked together like clockwork. In fact, i do much of the pubed for the other 2 departments.

There is an other pocket in the parish where 4 departments work together quite well in great part because of need.

But there are other areas in the northern part of the state where that isn't the case.

Another reason is simply resources and distance.

The simple fact is most of the parish is rural VFDs covering 150 miles with 15 volunteers and 3 stations. There are 4 depments with any kind of paid staff, and the largest of that is benton with 7 piad members per shift plus some volunteers covering in excess of 200 square miles. We cover 200 miles with 3 paid firefighters plus volunteers per shift. One other department is about the same size and staffing, and the third covers about 4 square miles with 2-3 per shift.

So the staffing simp[ly does not exist for station cover, and like the day of the Benton fire, just about everyone was working brush fires with 20-25 mph winds.

The manpower and resources simply didn't exist to provide much in the way of help when we are all working our own incidents.

[LaFireEducator]

Wasn't trying to argue, just showing you that most were under the same impression. You might want to take a look at comments on the fire that have statements from "firefighters" from your department that responded

I have no clue who has made comments from my department.

If they had made comments about a situation that they were not a part of, they probably should not have.

The relationship between Benton and Bossier city is based on both personality and politics. The fact that Bossier City has lost personnel and 1-2 companies over the past 2 years due to budget cuts also plays a factor into the mutual aid relationship between the 2.

Due to our excellent relationship with our neighboring fire districts, we have little need of city resources, and likely the only time they would be called, event though they operate a station less than a mile away from our district line, is for an aerial if we have a commercial fire, which is a extremly rare event.

We also have our own issues with the city FD but luckily, we have little need of city resources.

[tajm611]

Just out of curiosity, does ISO elicit a desire for better mutual aid or is ISO just an afterthought up there?

We didn't have a very strong relationship with a neighboring department but knowing how much better it is to not only have a few mutual aid departments but also automatic aid arbitrated discussion and eventually some very good agreements.

[LaFireEducator]

Just out of curiosity, does ISO elicit a desire for better mutual aid or is ISO just an afterthought up there?

We didn't have a very strong relationship with a neighboring department but knowing how much better it is to not only have a few mutual aid departments but also automatic aid arbitrated discussion and eventually some very good agreements.

As I'm sure you know, under the rating system used here in LA you get absolutly no credit for automatic mutual aid receieved and if you respond mutual aid more than a specified percentage of runs, it will actually hurt you as they will begin to deduct on-duty personnel as in PIAL's mind, your firefighters are not in your community but are operating elsewhere quite a bit.

That's the system.

ISO on the other hand will give you credit for any AMA received and will not deduct for AMA given. That is part of the reason you will find it used up north as it's a win-win situation, as compared to LA where you get no credit for receiving it and very well may loss staffing for giving it.

One of the other factors to consider is that in many areas up north, VFDs are located very near each other, so AMA is much like multiple stations responding in an urban or semi-urban department, unlike here, where any AMA department responding to us would have a fairly extended response time (with the exception of one).

In our department, we honestly have enough volunteer staffing that an AMA respoonse from our neighbor's isn't required. We are quick to call for mutual aid if needed. An example was yesterday where we had 3 other departments responding to a reported structure fire at an explosives manufacturing facility simply based on dispatch reports and the smoke column.

[GTRider245]

What I am curious of is how many of you city fire department guys who have hydrants every 500' and on every street corner actually train with drafting and doing a water shuttle operation JUST IN CASE you have to respond with a neighboring rural fire department.

[LaFireEducator]

What I am curious of is how many of you city fire department guys who have hydrants every 500' and on every street corner actually train with drafting and doing a water shuttle operation JUST IN CASE you have to respond with a neighboring rural fire department.

It just amazes me how much we train on ladders seems to be such a concern of posters hundreds of miles away.

[MBarnes]

You know, I love giving crap to LA as much as the next guy. But seriously, an almost fully involved, upon arrival, apartment fire is being used in an attempt to discredit him and his FD? Sorry, but that is pathetic.

My intent was never to critize the actions taken at this fire. It's the first time I have been able to see what the area looks like. Based on the impression that has been left, I was surprised to see MOD's. And I would argue, only based on watching the videos, that the building was not fully involved. The attic space certainly was fully involved, just not sure the rest of the building was. Doesn't change the fact that based on staffing, water supply and delay in arrival, this building was a loser from the start. It happens.

What I am curious of is how many of you city fire department guys who have hydrants every 500' and on every street corner actually train with drafting and doing a water shuttle operation JUST IN CASE you have to respond with a neighboring rural fire department.

I understand your logic here, but can you compare ladder skills to drafting skills? One is a fundamental firefighter skill taught to every FFI. I don't believe drafting is part of the FFI curriculum?

[edpmedic]

It just amazes me how much we train on ladders seems to be such a concern of posters hundreds of miles away.

We need to do a VES on occasion. We do make entry with a hoseline from a ground ladder now and again. We also ladder every side of the building, then every window if we can, in case we need to do a ladder bailout, a rescue, or maybe RIT can make entry into the window, based on the location of the Mayday, just off the top of my head.

Things can get bad real fast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30SCtOHUGhc

Two FF's were caught in that flashover, but were near the entrance, and were helped out by R426. If they were trapped on side Charlie, on the first floor where they were working at one point, they would have been cut off from the entrance. What if crews were searching the second floor? The occupants were all out on arrival, but if not, T422 would have been on the second floor with no egress, if no ladders were thrown. Even with SF Ranch, or a trailer, there's can still be a drop off from the window to the outside. A ladder will help prevent an injury while bailing out. A FF on the ladder can also pull on the FF inside to help them get over the sill. I can take webbing with a tied water knot, loop one end around my wrist, hold the window sill, use the other end as a step, and make it to a high window. I may still need a FF on the outside to pull me over the hump. Hard to do w/o a ladder if the window's up high enough. The webbing method is more of a basement thing, but still...

With the second video, note that at 5:13 on side A, they made entry inside off the ladder. We finished the job on the inside, containing the damage only to the end unit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8vu7AObOR4&NR=1

[edpmedic]

What I am curious of is how many of you city fire department guys who have hydrants every 500' and on every street corner actually train with drafting and doing a water shuttle operation JUST IN CASE you have to respond with a neighboring rural fire department.

We're not urban, but we have elements of urban, suburban, and rural, depending on what part of the county we're in (Fairfax). We train relay operatons at least once a year for companies that don't have tankers. For the other companies, they drill regularly. I do know that with our 750 gallon tanks on our engines, we can get five continuous minutes of flow with an 1 3/4'' at 150 GPM. But you're not going to flow continuously. You'll typically open up for 10-15 seconds or so, move, then open up again, etc. You can at least go interior with the line to either search or protect the crews doing the primary, without a water supply for at least the first five minutes before pulling out.

[LaFireEducator]

We need to do a VES on occasion. We do make entry with a hoseline from a ground ladder now and again. We also ladder every side of the building, then every window if we can, in case we need to do a ladder bailout, a rescue, or maybe RIT can make entry into the window, based on the location of the Mayday, just off the top of my head.

Things can get bad real fast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30SCtOHUGhc

Two FF's were caught in that flashover, but were near the entrance, and were helped out by R426. If they were trapped on side Charlie, on the first floor where they were working at one point, they would have been cut off from the entrance. What if crews were searching the second floor? The occupants were all out on arrival, but if not, T422 would have been on the second floor with no egress, if no ladders were thrown. Even with SF Ranch, or a trailer, there's can still be a drop off from the window to the outside. A ladder will help prevent an injury while bailing out. A FF on the ladder can also pull on the FF inside to help them get over the sill. I can take webbing with a tied water knot, loop one end around my wrist, hold the window sill, use the other end as a step, and make it to a high window. I may still need a FF on the outside to pull me over the hump. Hard to do w/o a ladder if the window's up high enough. The webbing method is more of a basement thing, but still...

With the second video, note that at 5:13 on side A, they made entry inside off the ladder. We finished the job on the inside, containing the damage only to the end unit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8vu7AObOR4&NR=1

Don't disagree with a word you have said about the value of ladder skills regarding second floor operations. In fact, I haven't disagreed with a single poster on thier value.

However, training volunteers has to do with designating priorities, and using what training time you have to accomplish those priorities. Those priorities are built around the how often you will use a skill., and part of that is based on local building construction. Around here we have very few 2 story structures. As I have stated many, many times, I don't beleive we have responded to a single fire in a two story structure in the 9 years I have been here.

Because of that the department has not made second story laddering operations a priority. Right or wrong, the fact is a volunteer's training time is limited and choices do have to be made. We teach them to ladder and work on a roof as a basic introductory skill, as that is the laddering skills that are applicable to the vast majority of the buildings in our response area. If we decided to add second story operations, do we lenghten the rookie training period, or delete a skill such a brush fire operations, basic industrial/drilling site operations or basic vehicle rescue that we use far more often?

By the way, second story laddering skills, entering through a window and second story victim removal are taught as skills during weekly training nights. And they are taught as part of FFI which many of our volunteers take after completing the introductory skills class. Just thought I would mention that, again.

Again, if you wish to define a basic skill by FFI cirriculum, fine. In a perfect world with unlimited volunteer time, or in a career department recruit class where members are paid to be there, I would go along with that. But in a the real world where you only have so much volunteer training time, it's my feeling, and the department's feeling that the skills you teach should be priotrized based on geography, occupancy and frequency.