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  • #16
    Very well explained. I do have some experience with unions on the airline side, and it was rather negative because the older members would blatantly throw the new guys (and the FNG's futures) under the bus to retain their (the older's member's) status. Basically an "I got mine" attitude. Do you find that true or not in the fire service unions?

    Again, a great post.
    The winner is not the person with the most gold when he dies, but rather, the most stories

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    • #17
      Originally posted by headoutdaplane View Post
      Very well explained. I do have some experience with unions on the airline side, and it was rather negative because the older members would blatantly throw the new guys (and the FNG's futures) under the bus to retain their (the older's member's) status. Basically an "I got mine" attitude. Do you find that true or not in the fire service unions?
      While I've seen a few places that this has happened it usually doesn't happen too often as most often the "old guys" aren't gone before the "new guys" are now in the drivers seat dangling the old contract saying, "remember this?" I'm betting a lot of this type of problems goes along with FD and union pride and general brotherhood issues that affect some shops.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
        Crabby, excellent post. However, I think that you might add a little more to the section about the Right-to-Work states in which there is no collective bargaining or contracts, such as Virginia. We do have unions, but they take on a slightly different role than those in most other states.
        Feel free to educate further. I talked briefly with some FF's from Right to Work states while at ALTS in Phoenix. I recall a couple guys from VA saying they use political action to address issues, but don't have all the inside info.
        The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

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        • #19
          Well done crabby, and thank you.

          FM1
          I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

          Originally posted by EastKyFF
          "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

          Comment


          • #20
            Well.........

            Crabby, Very Well Done Sir, Thank You. My Union experience was a bit different than most, and a couple of guys still avoid me when we are at the same place. (At our age, usually a Funeral Home) I felt that I would not allow anyone to dictate what I could do on my own time, including serving as a Volunteer. As a result my Union Membership was Brief. But, all said and done, I still support the Tenents that a Union is (Supposedly) based on, with collective bargaining as the key item. I sometimes get a bit of flak for saying something that supports a union position, but so be it. In today's times, I would think that Unions need to rethink how they operate, and what their priorities are. I wouldn't be trying to get more people hired when the emphasis is on layoffs. Instead, get busy and work hard (as most do) to try to avoid any cuts in existing staffing. Once things (the Economy) have stabilized, start bringing back laid off folks, then go after more jobs after that. Concentrate your efforts on keeping what you have First, then look for improvement after that..........
            Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
            In memory of
            Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
            Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

            IACOJ Budget Analyst

            I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

            www.gdvfd18.com

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            • #21
              Crabby, Thank you for a very informative post.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by hwoods View Post
                Crabby, Very Well Done Sir, Thank You. My Union experience was a bit different than most, and a couple of guys still avoid me when we are at the same place. (At our age, usually a Funeral Home) I felt that I would not allow anyone to dictate what I could do on my own time, including serving as a Volunteer. As a result my Union Membership was Brief. But, all said and done, I still support the Tenents that a Union is (Supposedly) based on, with collective bargaining as the key item. I sometimes get a bit of flak for saying something that supports a union position, but so be it. In today's times, I would think that Unions need to rethink how they operate, and what their priorities are. I wouldn't be trying to get more people hired when the emphasis is on layoffs. Instead, get busy and work hard (as most do) to try to avoid any cuts in existing staffing. Once things (the Economy) have stabilized, start bringing back laid off folks, then go after more jobs after that. Concentrate your efforts on keeping what you have First, then look for improvement after that..........
                Harve, that is what the IAFF has been doing... on all levels.
                ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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                • #23
                  Ummmm, Yeah, But.........

                  Originally posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
                  Harve, that is what the IAFF has been doing... on all levels.
                  I understand. And even more so in your area. Down here, we have a few places where the Local is trying to push expansion of the workforce, apparently oblivious to the Idea that you have to solidify your current position before moving ahead. Despite relative stability in the job market, which is due to the huge Federal Payroll in the Greater Washington DC Metro area, Local Governments are still in a very tight place Financially. To try to move ahead without a strong platform to work from seems foolhardy to me. We are hiring here, but because the Retirement cycle is where it is right now, the new hires will just be filling vacant slots, not adding to the overall total. To properly plan for expansion, you have to have a good handle on future Revenue inflow, and I'm not sure that is the case here. The absolute LAST Thing I want to hear of is that we're needing to lay off some positions to make the budget work........
                  Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
                  In memory of
                  Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
                  Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

                  IACOJ Budget Analyst

                  I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

                  www.gdvfd18.com

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I respectfully disagree with the below quoted line. Sorry in advance if anyone feels its wrong to comment on one line from such a large post but it really stood out in my mind.

                    “People believed the efforts of their labor was worth something especially when producing a profit that owners didn't fairly share.”

                    The profit belongs to the owner. Nothing unfair about them keeping the profit, it is theirs to keep. A worker agrees to exchange their labor for payment. That is all they are entitled too. The purpose of a “for profit” company is to make profits for the owners. The company does not exist to provide jobs or anything else for the non owners. If they do not like their labor for payment agreement, they are free to terminate the agreement.

                    Public employees are completely different, as there is no profit. I certainly do not feel this could work for them because it is not possible to fairly monetize their work. Not apples to apples. My comments are specific to a “for profit” business which I believed was the intent of the OP.

                    I believe a person’s life experience influences their opinions. So to be fair to everone, full disclosure, im not a union employee. I am an “at will” production employee. I can be terminated at anytime for any reason. I’ve never been unemployed for longer than 2 weeks in 20yrs. Also, I have been at the same firm for the last 10 years. No contract other than I agree to work for a specific price. This works for me and I understand it might not work for everyone.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by weekender View Post
                      I respectfully disagree with the below quoted line. Sorry in advance if anyone feels its wrong to comment on one line from such a large post but it really stood out in my mind.

                      “People believed the efforts of their labor was worth something especially when producing a profit that owners didn't fairly share.”

                      The profit belongs to the owner. Nothing unfair about them keeping the profit, it is theirs to keep. A worker agrees to exchange their labor for payment. That is all they are entitled too. The purpose of a “for profit” company is to make profits for the owners. The company does not exist to provide jobs or anything else for the non owners. If they do not like their labor for payment agreement, they are free to terminate the agreement.

                      Public employees are completely different, as there is no profit. I certainly do not feel this could work for them because it is not possible to fairly monetize their work. Not apples to apples. My comments are specific to a “for profit” business which I believed was the intent of the OP.
                      Actually not. My intention here was to provide an insight about why unions were formed and how they operate. There have been numerous threads as well as numerous misconceptions about unions, such as dues going to political campaigns, of which is not true.

                      You can disagree with the comment, but that was a big issue as to why unions were formed. The pay disparity was quite significant and the wrok conditions deplorable. When workers banded together and withheld their labor, the company was less profitable, workers believed they should have a fair wage and benefits. This is a part of history and to provide background as to why unions came to be.

                      Now in today's world, and your own experiences, there are many laws now that did not exist when labor unions were first being formed. The 40 hour work week was unheard of, OT, basically non-existant, children worked in factories, there were safety issues and so forth. It was the labor unions that fought to change things and also push for legislation creating such labor laws even non-union folks do enjoy today.

                      The reason for unions today is to keep a level playing field and to be able to negotiate terms. There are many things which can be discussed without everything being about money. Yes, the owner does have the right to a profit, unions are about negotiating a fair wage for their labor. Not every job needs to have unions, but the purpose of this thread is not to debate about profits, negotiations, etc, but to educate about how unions operate, what dues go towards, some basic negotiations. Every union and company/community will be different, the basics are about the same though.
                      The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

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                      • #26
                        i mentioned it was what i "believed" was your original intent because i knew i might be wrong. your most recent post clarifys your intent. thanks.

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                        • #27
                          Excellent job Crabby.

                          And weekender, what was the purpose or intent of your post? I guess I don't understand if you made a point.

                          Are you saying that public sector employees should have the right to representation or belong to a union?
                          RK
                          cell #901-494-9437

                          Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

                          "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


                          Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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                          • #28
                            I pointed out my disagreement with the one sentence I quoted. My opinion was stated quite clear with respect to the quote I believe. Not trying to be argumentative, sorry if it read unclearly. I thought it was very concise and specific, apparently not.

                            I didn’t give an opinion either way if public or private employees should unionize. I was speaking very specifically to the right of an owner to spend his profits as he see’s fit. Jccrabby3084 pointed out that this was not on topic and I conceded that in my second post.

                            My comments on public employees, was not to imply anything about unionization. I was trying to show that I understood when discussing profitability and the rights to said profits, public employees should be excluded from the discussion. As stated, it is very difficult to monetize their work fairly.

                            this is jccrabby3084’s thread and he made it clear my post was not on topic. Sorry, if it was confusing but it’s a moot point anyway, as it should not have been posted in the first place.

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                            • #29
                              Oh please. This is my thread, now.
                              Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by weekender View Post
                                I was speaking very specifically to the right of an owner to spend his profits as he see’s fit.
                                The owner of a (private) business absolutely has the right to spend his profits however he wishes.

                                However profits are just that, profits - as in the money that is left over once all expenses have been paid. Trying to negotiate better compensation isn't specifically telling an owner how to spend his profits, because any increase wouldn't necessarily be paid out of any profits already on hand.

                                Technically, the increase would be paid for via future revenues and would be an expense paid and therefore would not actually be a part of the owner's profit.

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