Unions and Sustainability

[Blulakr]

#1 I would never expect an independent shop to come close to what the city government can offer.



#2 Since he didn't leave a comment on how we've been getting screwed over the last 9 years, being in the same field, I've concluded as you have. Not so smart.

FM1

I don't have the time to respond to everyone here. Sorry if you felt slighted.

To comment #1; This is exactly the problem. It's not what the city (or county\state) can offer it's what they do offer. Often what they do offer is more than they can afford.

To comment #2; If you're "getting screwed" then leave. I know my toolbox has wheels on it and I've used them recently to my advantage. My guess is that you're still getting a pretty good deal compared to what else is out there or you'd already have left. Perhaps your pay package is only now inline with what it should have been all along.

[MassFireGuy]

I am amazed on a daily business how little people know about unions and collective bargaining. Turn off Fox News and do some research.

[LaFireEducator]

I am amazed on a daily business how little people know about unions and collective bargaining. Turn off Fox News and do some research.

I have seen what one union in particular has tried to do to neighboring VFDS, and primarily because of that I have no use for them an never will.

Again, most unionized firefighters have little to complain about given wages and benefits, and still have a far better deal in terms of paying for fringes than the general population. Like it or not, that's what the public sees, and yes, in some cases, that's what the public resents.

[FyredUp]

I am amazed on a daily business how little people know about unions and collective bargaining. Turn off Fox News and do some research.

Research takes work, that is why most anti-Union people watch Fox news, listen to Rush or Glenn Beck, or Bill O'Reilly, or locally in Madison Vicki McKenna to get told what to think.

[AFPD34]

I'll address some of this.....watch the news, look at how they act? Sure, just make sure you are getting the right story. Sure is amazing for Fox News to show the protests in Madison with palm trees lining the streets. Then there are other videos out there that are not even in WI, but you say watch the news and look at how they act. Well to that I say yes, watch how the unions in Madison did police themselves and kept the protests peaceful. It is the right of any American to exercise their 1st Amendment rights and they have.

Now you say visit Detroit as proof of unions getting out of control. Well, make sure you look at the corporate execs when you do that as well. While the UAW did get some great pay and benefits, the execs were walking away with quite a pocketful as well. What killed Detroit wasn't the unions, but the ignorance of the American auto industry to look ahead. Gas was cheaper and they turned out gas guzzling SUV's instead of looking to retool and design more fuel efficient vehicles. Is this the fault of unions? By the time the auto industry realized the SUVs weren't selling as good, they were already behind the curve. Such woes can not be blamed solely on unions.

Obama has nothing to do with denying rights to federal employees. There was a national collective bargaining bill that was defeated last year, in a democrat controlled Congress. (Just in case you wanted to play the card about unions controlling dems)

There is not a need for unions to be in every workplace, but unions do have their place and they really are not out of control as you may claim. It is tough to say how out of control they are when there are concessions made, yet don't make the news. It is funny how quick a story about a pay raise makes the media, yet when concessions are made, nary a word. If you belong in a union you may have some understanding, if not, then you are on the outside pointing fingers without truly knowing for sure.

Nice talking points... I bet they work on your friends around the lunch table.

You say "peaceful" Did Rep. Michael Capuano (Union backed U.S. Representative from Massachusetts's 8th congressional district) not call for protestors to "get into the streets and get a little bloody when necessary"?

You say the UAW didn't kill Detroit? I thought the UAW didn't even deny that. I guess UAW should of bought up bankrupt automakers. I wonder why they didn't?

Obama has nothing to do with denying rights to federal employees? I guess if he feels so strongly about the subject then, he could of included that in his health bill... Right? Every other part of his agenda was in it.

Gov. Scott Walker wasn't asking for too much. Do you not agree? Fair is spending money that you have. Fair is spending your own money that you have. Now, in the private sector, when the money runs out, jobs go away. Businesses go away. When the money is running out, all but the essentials are dropped. Free office lunches, businesses trips, bonuses, new office furniture, upgraded computers, software, health insurance, contributions to retirement accounts: all that gone. To continue to pay for anything beyond keeping the lights on and salaries is plain stupid if the goal is to keep the business alive. See, in the private sector the purpose of a business is not to give you health care.

In the private sector the purpose of a business is not to give you a retirement or sick days or trips to the vet. In the public sector, that's exactly what jobs are seen as. It makes me sick to watch angry, militant, ungrateful state employees WITH JOBS complain that they can't receive extravagant benefit and pension contributions from people who have no money because they are out of work. No one's asked them to dip into their savings. That's what people in the private sector are having to do. When the money runs out, there should be zero contributions to pensions and health insurance -- and if that doesn't cover the tab, then the job is cut. BUT not before

But wait... we just want more don't we?

[LaFireEducator]

Research takes work, that is why most anti-Union people watch Fox news, listen to Rush or Glenn Beck, or Bill O'Reilly, or locally in Madison Vicki McKenna to get told what to think.

Nice generalization.

Guess what? Anti-union doesn't mean uninformed. It just means we make our own decisions.

Again, I have no use for unions given that they ensure that the lazy slug that does enough just to get by receives the same compensation and job security protections as I do, which I guess would be fine if I was the lazy slug.

And yes, my hatred for the IAFF does go beyond that.

[nameless]

I love how people blame the union for protecting the lazy and sluggish. In Police and Fire, a lot of the lazy, slugs could have been weeded out in the academy but were kept on by the administration. They either were kept because they wanted a body to fill a spot on a shift, they're someone's kid, or they fulfilled a certain demographic that isn't bountiful in public safety.

Most IAFF locals would be happy to see higher pre-employment requirements, but the city administration doesn't want to.

[Blulakr]

Then you have no clue how collective bargaining works. Before the politicians sign off on an agreement they demand approval of its affordability from the bean counters.

Then I guess we need to define "affordability".

I think a new 55" flat screen is needed in my living room, my bean counter wife disgrees and I'm pretty sure her numbers are accurate.

Perhaps the government bean counters need a better calculator.

[FyredUp]

Gov. Scott Walker wasn't asking for too much. Do you not agree? Fair is spending money that you have. Fair is spending your own money that you have. Now, in the private sector, when the money runs out, jobs go away. Businesses go away. When the money is running out, all but the essentials are dropped. Free office lunches, businesses trips, bonuses, new office furniture, upgraded computers, software, health insurance, contributions to retirement accounts: all that gone. To continue to pay for anything beyond keeping the lights on and salaries is plain stupid if the goal is to keep the business alive. See, in the private sector the purpose of a business is not to give you health care.

In the private sector the purpose of a business is not to give you a retirement or sick days or trips to the vet. In the public sector, that's exactly what jobs are seen as. It makes me sick to watch angry, militant, ungrateful state employees WITH JOBS complain that they can't receive extravagant benefit and pension contributions from people who have no money because they are out of work. No one's asked them to dip into their savings. That's what people in the private sector are having to do. When the money runs out, there should be zero contributions to pensions and health insurance -- and if that doesn't cover the tab, then the job is cut. BUT not before

But wait... we just want more don't we?

Look, YOU need to get far more informed before you go off on rants.

1) If the state is truly broke jusitify the $140 million in tax breaks to PRIVATE businesses, industry, and corporations.

2) Why reject the $137 million in concessions the State Employees offered WILLINGLY?

3) Why, if collective bargaining was about saving money, remove ALL the fiscal elements of his budget bill so he could have the collective bargaining element rammed through?

4) Why deny the Democratic Assembly members the chance to debate the budget bill before ramming the bill through?

5) Why is walker either so ignorant, uninformed or just bald faced LYING, about the sitting legislators and himself being affected by the increase in helath care and pension costs? It is against the law in Wisconsin to change a sitting legislators compensation package up or down.

6) How can you support a man who will cut $900 from education and $500 from health care for the poorest citizens, children, and the elderly.

7) Why are you so uninformed about why the pension isn't as solvent as it once was? Tommy Thompson began the economic decline in Wisconsin. he STOLE from the pension fund, borrowed to fund operating costs, and spent money frivolously on things like airplanes.

8) Do some more research and stop listening to talk radio...despite what Mark Belling says, on average public employees in Wisconsin earn 8% less than their private sector counterparts.

9) It makes me sick to listen to bitter, angry, uninformed, led around by the ring in their nose right wingers whine because their jobs and life suck.

10) Please tell us what YOU do for a livng. I am on the edge of my seat in anticipation.

Have a nice day.

[FyredUp]

Nice generalization.

Guess what? Anti-union doesn't mean uninformed. It just means we make our own decisions.

Again, I have no use for unions given that they ensure that the lazy slug that does enough just to get by receives the same compensation and job security protections as I do, which I guess would be fine if I was the lazy slug.

And yes, my hatred for the IAFF does go beyond that.

IF a lazy slug is protected on a Union job it is because his supervisor is either too lazy or too stupid to know that he needs to document the behavior and if it happens continuously they can be fired. That is the reality despite what people who refuse to face the truth want to believe.

You CAN be fired as a Union employee, you just can't be vindictively fired because the boss is having a bad day.

Frankly, LA, your ignorance has never shined brighter than when you talk about Unions, and especially the IAFF. I will gladly pay my dues to the Union for all they have given me in return.

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

I have read thru some of the other threads on the current union and collective bargaining debates and have not seen this idea mentioned. I apologize if I'm regurgitating someone elses idea.

I work in the private sector as an auto mechanic. If all of my co-workers were to band together as a union and demand more pay and better bennie's with the threat of striking my employer would likely have to close the doors. Even if we were to only ask to be compensated equally with public employees, my employer would not be able to sustain a profitable and competitive business while absorbing the increase in labor costs.

My power lies in my ability to sell my services to the highest bidder, not in union bargaining. Even if it means having to move my family to another location, I can and will do so. My employer knows this and compensates me as much as the market will bear to keep me happy and productive.

Contrast that with public employees unions. Governments can raise taxes\fees or simply spend more than they take in to cover expenses such as labor costs. They can and have done this for a long time. They don't have to live within their means in the same way private business does. This simply is unsustainable and must not continue.

Okay.. so you work in the private sector as an auto mechanic.

The average cost of labor per hour for an automotive technician in my area is $90 an hour.

For your employer to keep you happy and productive, if you ask for a pay increase.. he will just raise the labor rate to compensate and what he charges for parts, and also passes on a recycling fee for the waste oil. coolant and such.

Your clients expect the same services, whether it be something as simple as an oil change or complete motor rebuild.

So.. how is that any different from municipalities? Even if they downsize personnel, the citizens expect the same level or service... or is that "unsustainable", too?

[FyredUp]

Okay.. so you work in the private sector as an auto mechanic.

The average cost of labor per hour for an automotive technician in my area is $90 an hour.

For your employer to keep you happy and productive, if you ask for a pay increase.. he will just raise the labor rate to compensate and what he charges for parts, and also passes on a recycling fee for the waste oil. coolant and such.

Your clients expect the same services, whether it be something as simple as an oil change or complete motor rebuild.

So.. how is that any different from municipalities? Even if they downsize personnel, the citizens expect the same level or service... or is that "unsustainable", too?

What the HELL are you doing introducing logic into a discussion?

[LaFireEducator]

IF a lazy slug is protected on a Union job it is because his supervisor is either too lazy or too stupid to know that he needs to document the behavior and if it happens continuously they can be fired. That is the reality despite what people who refuse to face the truth want to believe.

You CAN be fired as a Union employee, you just can't be vindictively fired because the boss is having a bad day.

Frankly, LA, your ignorance has never shined brighter than when you talk about Unions, and especially the IAFF. I will gladly pay my dues to the Union for all they have given me in return.

That's great and that is your right.

Part of the reason they don't write them up is because it's simply too difficult a process to get them fired. My father went through that many times as a state employee supervisor.

Civil service is the same way here. Most times it's simply not worth the effort as the majority of the suspensions and firings are reversed by the board, often on very minor procedural technicalities.

I have no use for unions in general and specifically the IAFF.

I have seen what some of the actions of the IAFF have done to manpower levels at VFDs firsthand as we lost 2 members, and another neighboring department lost another 2 members directly because of language inserted into a career's contract directly at the request of the (IAFF) union local.

I have also seen union member's living in our district bring up untrue information with the neighboring local's support to the town council regarding my VFDs response times and manpower levels in an effort to get career firefighters into the door.

Again, I have no use for an organization that attempts to undercut another fire service organization in that way.

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

What the HELL are you doing introducing logic into a discussion?

Someone has to counter the idiocy being posted here....

[Jasper 45]

1) If the state is truly broke jusitify the $140 million in tax breaks to PRIVATE businesses, industry, and corporations.

Because tax breaks to small business is what it takes to bring business into the state. Just take a look at what Doyle did with the film business. By his rescinding of the tax breaks for film, he got at least a total of five movies to leave the state. Miller Brewing's headquarters is now in Chicago because the state of Wisconsin refused to offer tax incentives to them.
It's called a long term goal, in my honest opinion.

2) Why reject the $137 million in concessions the State Employees offered WILLINGLY?

He didn't. He didn't have to deal. It's along the lines from Obama.

3) Why, if collective bargaining was about saving money, remove ALL the fiscal elements of his budget bill so he could have the collective bargaining element rammed through?

They were removed because 14 senators refused to do their job.

4) Why deny the Democratic Assembly members the chance to debate the budget bill before ramming the bill through?

Who was denied what? Three plus weeks in Illinois; close to thirty plus hours of actual debate on the floor is not allowing their voice to be heard? I guess death threats and threats of firefighters striking is called "debate"?

5) Why is walker either so ignorant, uninformed or just bald faced LYING, about the sitting legislators and himself being affected by the increase in helath care and pension costs? It is against the law in Wisconsin to change a sitting legislators compensation package up or down.

6) How can you support a man who will cut $900 from education and $500 from health care for the poorest citizens, children, and the elderly.

Long term health of the state finances could be one reason. Maybe people felt that Barrett would have bankrupted the state in the long run. I don't know. Your comments tho, are awfully close to the talking points you accuse others of using from Mark Belling and Vick McKenna. BTW; read the bill yet?

7) Why are you so uninformed about why the pension isn't as solvent as it once was? Tommy Thompson began the economic decline in Wisconsin. he STOLE from the pension fund, borrowed to fund operating costs, and spent money frivolously on things like airplanes.

I don't know about the state's pension; we caught Norquist stealing from ours years ago and spent years trying to stop him. From what I understand tho, the state is in better shape than ours is. That is over 100% funded, which is a very good thing.

9) It makes me sick to listen to bitter, angry, uninformed, led around by the ring in their nose right wingers whine because their jobs and life suck.

I'm not bitter. I'm also not led around by my nose. Don't be hat'n!! Don't walk out on strike, either!

10) Please tell us what YOU do for a living.

Union firefighter.


Look, I'm not overly thrilled with what is going on. I don't think it is that bad, tho, honestly. I could be wrong. I do know this state has been going in the wrong direction for years, financially. I respect you and your opinion and value it, believe me, I do.
Just don't buy into the bullsh*t. Don't walk out on strike, as Joe Conway advocates; anyone who walks is wrong.