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  • FyredUp
    replied
    Okay, to all of you that have gotten so worked up over what I said. You have issues with department policy of both my volly and career FDs, groovy. I'll be sure to tell them all the guys at FH.com said they were wrong.

    I never said I can't raise a ladder by myself and in fact I have raised, on more than a few occasions, all the way up to a 28 foot ladder by myself. I teach the 24 foot single FF raise both at the tech college and to my fellow volunteers.

    Of course there will always be situations where you may need to raise a ladder by yourself. An example would be someone pops up at a window and you are alone for whatever reason. My point is IF AT ALL POSSIBLE the ladder should be butted or secured, especially if you are making a rescue. It does absolutely no good at all to get someone out of a window escaping a firey death only to have the ladder kick out and have them die through face planting into the concrete.

    You want to challenge my manhood or courage or comfort level over working on ladders? Good for you. I worked construction for many years and routinely worked off from ground ladders up to 40 foot long. You can choose to work how ever you want but I see zero benefit, unless a life is at risk, for hurrying and not securing the ladder first.

    Funny thing is my volly FD has a total of 22 people on it, a good response is 14, but it has been far less many times since most of us work out of town. My career FD on a still gets 13 people, on a working still we get 8 more. We manage to place ladders and if they are on concrete or asphalt we butt or secure them, grass or dirt most likely not. So no we are not blessed with an over abundance of personnel. Maybe I could come and train you guys on more efficient fire ground ops?

    Operate how ever you wish. I never said YOU have to do a damn thing that we do. Nor did I challenge your comfort level working on ladders. I stated how we do it and my personal opinion on whether or not to butt or secure a ladder.

    Leave a comment:


  • bgfdtower1
    replied
    Originally posted by pipeman1822 View Post
    I agree. We have 5-man trucks here. Two trucks on every box alarm and an additional truck on the working fire dispatch. We still throw ladders alone. That is expected right out of rookie school. It's just faster. Each truck throws 3-5 ladders for every fire. Most are just there in case needed for egress, but having 2-3 people throw each ladder for 5 ladders would waste time and personnel.
    I agree 100%. That's how we do it if the sitution warrants. That is the truck companies job. If you're throwing a ladder in the rear and someone is hanging out the window, go get em!! It's not rocket science!

    Leave a comment:


  • GTRider245
    replied
    Yeah, if you can't throw a roof ladder and work from it by yourself when you need to then you need to reevaluate your skill level. It is a basic skill.

    And in response to the question about what happens if the ladder falls with you and a kid on it, I would rather the ladder fall half way down than stand on the ground and watch the kid burn while I was waiting for someone to come foot my ladder. How rediculous.

    I know it is hard to believe for some of you, but some of us may still be riding alone on a truck in the smaller VFDs. If I pull up alone and have someone hanging out a window, the ladder gets thrown and I am going up it.

    Leave a comment:


  • pipeman1822
    replied
    Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Really? Single wall ladder raises are two man jobs? You guys must truly be more fortunate than most of us, as it seems single raises and climbs are quite common in very large "well staffed" FD's. Not saying it's the best case scenario, but given the number of tasks at hand and the priorities, extra hands are rare.
    I agree. We have 5-man trucks here. Two trucks on every box alarm and an additional truck on the working fire dispatch. We still throw ladders alone. That is expected right out of rookie school. It's just faster. Each truck throws 3-5 ladders for every fire. Most are just there in case needed for egress, but having 2-3 people throw each ladder for 5 ladders would waste time and personnel.

    Leave a comment:


  • voyager9
    replied
    Originally posted by Deluge059 View Post
    How does it work if you're throwing ladders on concrete? The VES ladder is "technically" not at the proper climbing angle, so wouldn't there be an issue if you have it on concrete?
    As was already mentioned: Ideally you'd have someone foot the ladder if it was placed on concrete. Short of that you could put it at a steeper angle so it doesn't slip, or tie it off to something.

    I guess you could also try to jam a pike end of a tool or RR spike into the driveway but that would be time consuming and tough if it was concrete and not asphalt.

    I'm probably overthinking, but what about the rubber pads we use for extrication on highways? They're to keep the high-lift or struts from slipping.. could be used for a ground-ladder as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • RFDACM02
    replied
    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

    None of the FDs I have EVER been on send people to do ladder raises by themselves, especially for a rescue or VES. I am sorry that your FD is critically short handed and this is not a what if, but reality, situation for you.
    Really? Single wall ladder raises are two man jobs? You guys must truly be more fortunate than most of us, as it seems single raises and climbs are quite common in very large "well staffed" FD's. Not saying it's the best case scenario, but given the number of tasks at hand and the priorities, extra hands are rare.

    Leave a comment:


  • RFDACM02
    replied
    Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Ideally, yes someone footing the ladder.

    I'd have no qualms going up a ladder without someone footing it. Some folks are more comfortable operating off a ground ladder then others. Not a slam, just a statement of fact.
    So true, when I was a carpenter we spent hours each day up and down ladder with no footers, not tie off, carrying awkward loads. I'm not saying you shouldn't have them footed when and where you can, but it really comes down to your comfort level and the amount of time you spend throwing and climbing ladders.

    Leave a comment:


  • FyredUp
    replied
    Originally posted by powerhourcoug View Post
    Duh. Again. We all aspire to that. But sometimes that is not an option when we need to make a difference. That was the whole point of my response. Again.

    Regarding the "idiotic" question regarding kids. I love my family. As much as I love my family, I know there are other families that love theirs as much as I love mine, and as a result I've decided they deserve my best effort, and that includes taking risks.

    This is becoming a circular discussion, mostly because I think your ego is a little too invested in this message board, and it has become a waste of my time. I will not be reading this thread or responding to you again.
    My ego? Really? That's your answer to someone disagreeing with you and calling you on a truly ididotic scenario?

    None of the FDs I have EVER been on send people to do ladder raises by themselves, especially for a rescue or VES. I am sorry that your FD is critically short handed and this is not a what if, but reality, situation for you.

    Here is why I am so adamant about exhausting methods to butt a ladder before setting it unsecured on cement. During a training evolution on my career FD we had a FF on a ladder carrying a stokes basket up the ladder. he dropped it yelled look out and the guy butting the ladder let go and moved away from the ladder. Once he let go of the ladder it kicked out and the firefighter on the ladder fell to the pavement. He was injured seriously enough that he suffered fractures and had to have reconstructive surgery. He was off the job for months.

    I am VERY comfortable working off ladders and when I work off from them at home they are seldom butted or tied off. But then again I am sinking them into the lawn to secure them. If I am working with the ladder on concrete or blacktop I have someone butt it for me. My answers have nothing to do with fear of working on ladders or my comfort level. It has entirely to do with my knowing what falling 20 feet to the concrete will do when your ladder kicks out.

    Leave a comment:


  • powerhourcoug
    replied
    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
    I am not saying I would NEVER place a ladder on concrete and climb it without a butt person, or tieing it off, or sinking it in the grass. I am aying I would do my best to see that it was secured in some manner before climbing if possible. There is a subtle difference.
    Duh. Again. We all aspire to that. But sometimes that is not an option when we need to make a difference. That was the whole point of my response. Again.

    Regarding the "idiotic" question regarding kids. I love my family. As much as I love my family, I know there are other families that love theirs as much as I love mine, and as a result I've decided they deserve my best effort, and that includes taking risks.

    This is becoming a circular discussion, mostly because I think your ego is a little too invested in this message board, and it has become a waste of my time. I will not be reading this thread or responding to you again.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bushwhacker
    replied
    Originally posted by powerhourcoug View Post
    Like I said, I completely understand where you're coming from.

    I would cringe at the idea of climbing a ladder without proper footing. However, it has been done with spectacular results. I would cringe even more at the thought of telling a parent I didn't climb that ladder to try and save their child's life, because I was afraid it might fall out from below me.

    VES is an extremely controversial topic for many people. We should all ask ourselves these questions. These situations do happen.
    I cringe at the thought of the Same ladder sliding out from a second story window with me and a Kid on it...In what instance on the fire ground is there not some one able to heel a ladder? realistically?
    Even with the minimum staffing we are seeing i Can't see some one not being able to hold a ladder.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChiefKN
    replied
    Ideally, yes someone footing the ladder.

    I'd have no qualms going up a ladder without someone footing it. Some folks are more comfortable operating off a ground ladder then others. Not a slam, just a statement of fact.

    Leave a comment:


  • nameless
    replied
    for us it would be very few and far between to not have another person available, we work in pairs. But if it came down to it, there are a lot of options. If you're on the driveway between houses you can use the adjacent house or fence to foot the ladder. If you can't do that I'd just use a very steep angle to lessen the chance of kicking out. The ladder doesn't make to be at the perfect angle for climbing.

    Leave a comment:


  • powerhourcoug
    replied
    Like I said, I completely understand where you're coming from.

    I would cringe at the idea of climbing a ladder without proper footing. However, it has been done with spectacular results. I would cringe even more at the thought of telling a parent I didn't climb that ladder to try and save their child's life, because I was afraid it might fall out from below me.

    VES is an extremely controversial topic for many people. We should all ask ourselves these questions. These situations do happen.

    Leave a comment:


  • snowball
    replied
    Unless it's polished concrete, the metal spurs on a ground ladder surprisingly have quite a bit of friction.

    If it was an acute angle, I would hang the hooks of the roof ladder in the sill.
    That's only if there was no one there to foot it which would be rare.

    Leave a comment:


  • FyredUp
    replied
    Originally posted by powerhourcoug View Post
    Duh.

    If given the choice, I would obviously want the ladder footed.

    I was providing an example where it wasn't, and it worked.

    It also proves that we can't always mitigate the risk to zero to get the job done.

    I never said the danger could be mitigated to zero. But my point is clear. We do no one any good if the ladder we place to rescue them kicks out and falls because we didn't secure it before climbing.


    I'm not judging anyone's intent...just fueling discussion, because life, and this job throws curveballs at us...and the world is not an IFSTA manual or giant FF1 test.

    Wow! Gosh thanks for that pearl of wisdom. My 34 years as a firefighter never taught me that...




    Rhetorical Question...

    If someone told you YOUR kids were stuck in a second floor bedroom in a situation where immediate VES will be neccessary to save their lives, and you were by yourself with a ladder and the appropriate tools with no immediate help and nothing but concrete to slam it on....what would you do?

    These types of questions are, in my opinion anyways, idiotic and have no basis in reality when comparing that to the job of firefighting. Any man that says they wouldn't walk through the very gates of hell to save their own kids is a liar. I would take higher risks for my family simply because they are my family. Which is not to say I won't take risk for others in the course of my duty, just more calculated ones. In my case the only upstairs bedroom is my wife and I, all the kids are downstairs. I can access all of their rooms without a ladder. So much for the rhetorical question.
    I am not saying I would NEVER place a ladder on concrete and climb it without a butt person, or tieing it off, or sinking it in the grass. I am aying I would do my best to see that it was secured in some manner before climbing if possible. There is a subtle difference.

    Leave a comment:

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