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  • #16
    Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Ideally, yes someone footing the ladder.

    I'd have no qualms going up a ladder without someone footing it. Some folks are more comfortable operating off a ground ladder then others. Not a slam, just a statement of fact.
    So true, when I was a carpenter we spent hours each day up and down ladder with no footers, not tie off, carrying awkward loads. I'm not saying you shouldn't have them footed when and where you can, but it really comes down to your comfort level and the amount of time you spend throwing and climbing ladders.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

      None of the FDs I have EVER been on send people to do ladder raises by themselves, especially for a rescue or VES. I am sorry that your FD is critically short handed and this is not a what if, but reality, situation for you.
      Really? Single wall ladder raises are two man jobs? You guys must truly be more fortunate than most of us, as it seems single raises and climbs are quite common in very large "well staffed" FD's. Not saying it's the best case scenario, but given the number of tasks at hand and the priorities, extra hands are rare.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Deluge059 View Post
        How does it work if you're throwing ladders on concrete? The VES ladder is "technically" not at the proper climbing angle, so wouldn't there be an issue if you have it on concrete?
        As was already mentioned: Ideally you'd have someone foot the ladder if it was placed on concrete. Short of that you could put it at a steeper angle so it doesn't slip, or tie it off to something.

        I guess you could also try to jam a pike end of a tool or RR spike into the driveway but that would be time consuming and tough if it was concrete and not asphalt.

        I'm probably overthinking, but what about the rubber pads we use for extrication on highways? They're to keep the high-lift or struts from slipping.. could be used for a ground-ladder as well.
        So you call this your free country
        Tell me why it costs so much to live
        -3dd

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        • #19
          Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
          Really? Single wall ladder raises are two man jobs? You guys must truly be more fortunate than most of us, as it seems single raises and climbs are quite common in very large "well staffed" FD's. Not saying it's the best case scenario, but given the number of tasks at hand and the priorities, extra hands are rare.
          I agree. We have 5-man trucks here. Two trucks on every box alarm and an additional truck on the working fire dispatch. We still throw ladders alone. That is expected right out of rookie school. It's just faster. Each truck throws 3-5 ladders for every fire. Most are just there in case needed for egress, but having 2-3 people throw each ladder for 5 ladders would waste time and personnel.

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          • #20
            Yeah, if you can't throw a roof ladder and work from it by yourself when you need to then you need to reevaluate your skill level. It is a basic skill.

            And in response to the question about what happens if the ladder falls with you and a kid on it, I would rather the ladder fall half way down than stand on the ground and watch the kid burn while I was waiting for someone to come foot my ladder. How rediculous.

            I know it is hard to believe for some of you, but some of us may still be riding alone on a truck in the smaller VFDs. If I pull up alone and have someone hanging out a window, the ladder gets thrown and I am going up it.
            Career Firefighter
            Volunteer Captain

            -Professional in Either Role-

            Originally posted by Rescue101
            I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by pipeman1822 View Post
              I agree. We have 5-man trucks here. Two trucks on every box alarm and an additional truck on the working fire dispatch. We still throw ladders alone. That is expected right out of rookie school. It's just faster. Each truck throws 3-5 ladders for every fire. Most are just there in case needed for egress, but having 2-3 people throw each ladder for 5 ladders would waste time and personnel.
              I agree 100%. That's how we do it if the sitution warrants. That is the truck companies job. If you're throwing a ladder in the rear and someone is hanging out the window, go get em!! It's not rocket science!

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              • #22
                Okay, to all of you that have gotten so worked up over what I said. You have issues with department policy of both my volly and career FDs, groovy. I'll be sure to tell them all the guys at FH.com said they were wrong.

                I never said I can't raise a ladder by myself and in fact I have raised, on more than a few occasions, all the way up to a 28 foot ladder by myself. I teach the 24 foot single FF raise both at the tech college and to my fellow volunteers.

                Of course there will always be situations where you may need to raise a ladder by yourself. An example would be someone pops up at a window and you are alone for whatever reason. My point is IF AT ALL POSSIBLE the ladder should be butted or secured, especially if you are making a rescue. It does absolutely no good at all to get someone out of a window escaping a firey death only to have the ladder kick out and have them die through face planting into the concrete.

                You want to challenge my manhood or courage or comfort level over working on ladders? Good for you. I worked construction for many years and routinely worked off from ground ladders up to 40 foot long. You can choose to work how ever you want but I see zero benefit, unless a life is at risk, for hurrying and not securing the ladder first.

                Funny thing is my volly FD has a total of 22 people on it, a good response is 14, but it has been far less many times since most of us work out of town. My career FD on a still gets 13 people, on a working still we get 8 more. We manage to place ladders and if they are on concrete or asphalt we butt or secure them, grass or dirt most likely not. So no we are not blessed with an over abundance of personnel. Maybe I could come and train you guys on more efficient fire ground ops?

                Operate how ever you wish. I never said YOU have to do a damn thing that we do. Nor did I challenge your comfort level working on ladders. I stated how we do it and my personal opinion on whether or not to butt or secure a ladder.
                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                Millions of people living as foes
                Maybe it's not too late
                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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                • #23
                  Fyred, just curious, does your volly dept state how many people have to ride out on a rig?? Can a engine roll with just one guy on board?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by bgfdtower1 View Post
                    Fyred, just curious, does your volly dept state how many people have to ride out on a rig?? Can a engine roll with just one guy on board?
                    We attempt to fill the first engine if possible before it rolls, but will not wait an excessive amount of time to do it. The first engine is a 6 man cab 2000gpm pump with 1000 gallons of water and a Class A foam system. It is set up more like a squad company than an engine with extrication equipment and far more truck equipment than is normal for an engine. We feel that on MOST of our calls getting that rig there quickly is more beneficial than waiting for number 5 or 6 to climb on board if we have to wait for them. The second engine will respond with up to 5, the pumper tanker with 2, the brush buggy with 2 or 3.

                    When to leave is at the discretion of the officer with the clear guideline that we can't wait an inordinate amount of time for people to respond. The policy says if you feel that you have inadequate personnel before you go en route call for mutual aid. I have seen the pumper tanker and the brush rig respond with only 1 firefighter, but never either one of the engines.

                    We do not run a truck, but both of our engines have extra truck company equipment on board for those fireground activities.
                    Last edited by FyredUp; 03-01-2011, 12:58 PM.
                    Crazy, but that's how it goes
                    Millions of people living as foes
                    Maybe it's not too late
                    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by snowball View Post
                      Unless it's polished concrete, the metal spurs on a ground ladder surprisingly have quite a bit of friction.

                      This.

                      Agreed that having the ladder footed, tied off, secured in some way is best.

                      But...

                      How many of us hang Christmas lights, clean gutters, paint, etc. with a ladder set on the driveway, and have someone footing it?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by sfd1992 View Post
                        This.

                        Agreed that having the ladder footed, tied off, secured in some way is best.

                        But...

                        How many of us hang Christmas lights, clean gutters, paint, etc. with a ladder set on the driveway, and have someone footing it?
                        If the ladder is placed onto concrete or asphalt I have someone butt it. If no one is available I will tie it off with a piece of webbing or wait until someone is available.

                        Now if the ladder is placed on dirt, gravel, or grass, and I can get the butt spurs to dig in sufficiently, then no I do not have someone butt the ladder.
                        Crazy, but that's how it goes
                        Millions of people living as foes
                        Maybe it's not too late
                        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                          You can choose to work how ever you want but I see zero benefit, unless a life is at risk, for hurrying and not securing the ladder first.
                          Well now you're saying something a little different aren't you. If we're speaking of VES, we are likely highly suspicious that life may be at risk. So in fact, your statement contradicts itself, as I know you see benefit in doing what ever it takes when life is at risk. Securing the ladder each time you move from window to window would also be counterproductive to the VES concept that searches need to be where the potential occupants are in the most danger working toward the least dangerous area, securing the ladder each time would be far slower.
                          Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                          Funny thing is my volly FD has a total of 22 people on it, a good response is 14, but it has been far less many times since most of us work out of town. My career FD on a still gets 13 people, on a working still we get 8 more. We manage to place ladders and if they are on concrete or asphalt we butt or secure them, grass or dirt most likely not.
                          Even at 21 firefighters on scene using two per ladder must mean other tasks fall lower on the priority scale? We face similar staffing issues and never have enough soon enough.

                          The only real "mistake" you made here Brother is using the word "NEVER" with regard to the fireground. You and I both know that fires are far too dynamic for "never" and "always".

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by FireFuss
                            Wait, there are houses out there with grass in front of them? You guys are pullin my leg...
                            Sure, you can spot them driving down the street when you see a pair of sneakers hanging over the power lines.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                              None of the FDs I have EVER been on send people to do ladder raises by themselves, especially for a rescue or VES. I am sorry that your FD is critically short handed and this is not a what if, but reality, situation for you.
                              Really? When you are the OVM on my truck you are expected to be able to take, throw, use, rescue, etc on a ground ladder all by your lonesome. Sure, if you are seen coming down with a hefty hauler nobody on our dept is stupid enough not to run over and foot it, but the fact remains. Honestly, that surprises me a lil.
                              "It's a living thing brian..."

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                              • #30
                                To answer the original question.... The rule of thumb is to always butt a ladder (...and the caviate to that statement is ) especially when the surface on which the ladder is grounded is extremely solid (concrete, hard compacted gravel, ect) or extremely slick such as compacted wet grass or mud.

                                The back half of the statement implies some lee-way in butting on a tractionable surface. I'm sorry to say, but good judgement, situational awareness, and department policies will answer your question. Tying a ladder off, butting with a tool, or burying a ladder in the ground may be options in a pinch...just not options for the norm.

                                I guess one question comes to my mind... If you are VESing, I hope you have the manpower there to commit to the operation...That is not a threat or accusation, rather, FF safety first, because falling from 10' or 20' is not a good thing.
                                A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

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