CET Portable Pumps

[T.Young]

Is any one using a CET portable pumps? Our dept is looking at putting one on the next fire grant. The model we are considering is the 30hp model with 2 2.5 discharges, that flows 700 gpm max. We use water shuttles about 99% of the time , and this pump would be used to acess water points we can't get a pumper into for fill site's.

Thanks

[PaladinKnight]

If you want to score ISO points, consider this...

You need at least the same size pump at the water supply as at the Fireground. I usually advise my clients to go bigger.

Think BIG man... 700 gpm will not do it.

The entire refill from draft operation is more complicated than what many realize. A 700 gpm will never average 700 gpm during the refill. When you look at how much time it takes to throttle up, throttle down and connect hoses, you're looking at more like 350 to 400 gpm.

Couple this with what you suggest will be a very long 2.5" or 3" supply hose, friction loss will kill your delivery. Determine your longest distance for a draft then build around that. Once you establish suction, you can maintain the pump gpm by manipulating valves rather than the throttle. Just don't not try to 'lift' the water beyond the capability of the pump.


Use at least a 1000gpm (or 1250gpm) and get better results. The goal is to shorten the refill time and get the tanker on the road as quick as possible using as few people as possible.

Example:

Refill 2000 gallon Tanker

@ 400 gpm = 5 minutes

@ 750 gpm = 2.66 minutes (assuming you can maintain 750gpm)

@ 1000 gpm = 2 minutes

@ 1250 gpm = 1.6 minutes

These flows are merely for illustration purposes. There are too many variables that must be considered to guarantee a 1250 pump will operate at 1250; operator capablity, pump condition, hose size and distance, and tanker design.

* Add 30 to 60 seconds for connect and maneuver times.

How long do you want the tanker to sit there?

Every department that I assisted for an ISO Survey that used portable pumps, increased their Water Supply Score when they abandoned the portable pump, even on long draft situations.

But also consider better refill sites. Increasing refill gpm and driving an extra half mile may take less time than using an inferior location that provides poor access and reduced flows. Only you can determine this.



But, I will not tell you it is wrong... but rather you can do it better.



Note: If you are not asking this question in regard to ISO, then you can ignore everything that I stated. My next question would be: Why not?

[volfireman034]

We have a CET high volume portable pump model PFP-27hp-HV. We love it. We got funding through an AFG grant to get it. We use it for just what you are wanting to do. We only have 5 hydrants in our entire fire district and we have to use dry hydrants most of the time. We carry our CET on our first due tanker. It's a great option for a small department that doesnt have the funds to buy a 2nd pumper.
There are some things to consider. First, what flow rates are you looking for? For ISO our needed fire flow is only 750gpm so this pump works great for this use. If ISO is not an issue for you, then of course don't worry about NFF. It's alot cheaper then a pumper, it can also be used for limited relay pumping. We have used it for pumping down a drive way. Don't let others talk you out of considering it. Just look at what would work for your department and what your needs are. We also one time used the pump on the tanker at a house fire to run a 2 1/2 play pipe and it worked great.

Pros:
Cheap way to pump high volumns with out a 2nd pumper
ours can be carried with just 2 guys.
ISO will count it.
Give you access to remote water sources
Very reliable and simple to use.

Cons
won't pump more then 750gpm.

[LVFD301]

We have a CET high volume portable pump model PFP-27hp-HV. We love it. We got funding through an AFG grant to get it. We use it for just what you are wanting to do. We only have 5 hydrants in our entire fire district and we have to use dry hydrants most of the time. We carry our CET on our first due tanker. It's a great option for a small department that doesnt have the funds to buy a 2nd pumper.
There are some things to consider. First, what flow rates are you looking for? For ISO our needed fire flow is only 750gpm so this pump works great for this use. If ISO is not an issue for you, then of course don't worry about NFF. It's alot cheaper then a pumper, it can also be used for limited relay pumping. We have used it for pumping down a drive way. Don't let others talk you out of considering it. Just look at what would work for your department and what your needs are. We also one time used the pump on the tanker at a house fire to run a 2 1/2 play pipe and it worked great.

Pros:
Cheap way to pump high volumns with out a 2nd pumper
ours can be carried with just 2 guys.
ISO will count it.
Give you access to remote water sources
Very reliable and simple to use.

Cons
won't pump more then 750gpm.

If your NFF is 750, and the pump can only deliver 750 in a perfect world, how do you keep up?

That allows no time for hooking up, disconnecting, dumping, etc.

[kuh shise]

T.Young:

Took a look at the specs on this. Does a respectable job of moving water with 700 gpm at about 25 psi. Running dual 2 ½” lines at that rate with only 25 psi at the pump will only get you about 80 ft. or less with almost no elevation change. Switching to 3” hose with 2 ½” couplings will get you a distance of 200 ft. from the pump to the fill site, but still with almost no elevation change. Using dual 25 ft 3” into a Siamese and 200 ft. of 5” line will allow a rise of 20 feet and still deliver the 700 gpm. Going to 4” LDH is not any better than dual 3” lines. I do not like the pump curve appearance in the spec, but ya gotta believe that they ran it correctly.

When supplying a tanker shuttle, fill time is a critical element, so you should assign a drop tank to the FILL site and use it to supplement the filling engine when the tanker stops. Waiting for the portable pump to fill the tanker (3,000 gal) will take 4 ½ minutes plus connect and break time. Using a 1250 engine with 2000 gal drop tank and low level strainer, feeding the tanker will take 2 ½ minutes plus connect and break time. A 2 minute savings per fill. A 1 minute run time, 3 minute dump time and a 1 minute return time will allow plenty of time for the portable to refill the drop tank. If running 2 tankers, you can almost make it at 8 minute round trips. (tanker every 4 minutes.) Be sure to connect the portable pump to one steamer and put the drop tank and hard sleeve on the other side. That way you can take from both the drop tank and from the portable pump at the same time. This reduces the flow coming from the drop tank and reduces the work the engine needs to perform. If the drop tank becomes too low, simply open the apparatus tank to pump and supplement both the portable pump and the drop tank. Do not put the portable into the pony suction inlet(s) on the engine, use the steamer if at all possible.

Only draw back will be the weight of the unit. At nearly 200 lbs, two firefighters will struggle on rough terrain.

[mcwops]

We are using two Stanley hydraulic pumps. Each pump delivers 500 gpm pretty easily. One is hard plumbed to a PTO hydraulic pump on our wildland squad, while the other is attached to a stand alone gas powered hydraulic pump that is usually in the back of our command truck or the ATV trailer. They are nice because you only need a few inches of depth (good for small streams), and because there are none of the problems associated with a normal drafting operation. Just hook up the hose, drop the pump in the water, and flip the switch for the hydraulics. We use it quite a bit when we get into rural areas where a regular pumper can't reach.

[Pelican631]

We purchased a few CET portable pumps through a 2009 regional AFG project. We requested money for training as part of the grant. A summary of the training drill we conducted is here:

http://www.gotbigwater.com/content/events/file/DEER1001%20Drill%20Summary%20081510.pdf

If you look at the setup for the 2nd fill site in the presentation, you'll see that we used two 500 gpm pumps in an open relay to a portable tank for the fill site engine to draft from. The two portable pumps more than kept up with the fill site engine. We were overflowing the dump tank pretty much continuously. Our goal was to fill tankers at 1000 gpm, which we achieved. This doesn't mean the fill site was supplying the fire site with 1000 gpm, but that's how fast the fill site engine was able to fill tankers. Hook up and teardown times and tanker spacing drop down the overall efficiency.

We used the portable pumps to fill the dump tank rather than fill tankers directly because they are high volume but low pressure pumps. Someday I'd like to try using two of them to fill a tanker directly just to see how fast they'd fill in that configuration. The key is using LDH to minimize friction loss, since these pumps can't overcome very much of it.

Andy

[PaladinKnight]

The above is a great example of utilizing many resources. The use of portable pumps in this case works well. But it was also designed to function around the portable pumps supplying a dump tank (draft tank) with a refill pumper drafting and refilling the tankers. The use of LDH is a must here to overcome friction over the distance.

This works and appears to have satisfied a significant amount of the water supply. But without a bit more data, I'm not certain that this one site would supply enough to provide the 250gpm benchmark that ISO requires for PPC 8. The refill time is great, but much depends on dump times and distances.

But at any rate, this is an excellent presentation which proves you are only limited by your imagination. I appreciate the fact that you shared it with all of us.

Like I stated before... I will never say it is wrong.

Thank you.

As a follow-up question....

If you have already completed a ISO Survey, did your Water Supply score PPC 6 based on the 500gpm?

I don't know the particulars and exposures within your district, but if your primary response area is mostly residential structures, you guys should have handled it easily.

Thanks again...

PK

[Pelican631]

If you have already completed a ISO Survey, did your Water Supply score PPC 6 based on the 500gpm?

I don't know the particulars and exposures within your district, but if your primary response area is mostly residential structures, you guys should have handled it easily.

The drill referenced above was just for training purposes, not for ISO. We're up for a re-rating this year, and I'm hoping to lower our rural score. It's a little strange to me, but in this area not many departments even bother trying to lower their rural score below a nine, even though I think just about every department could if they wanted to. I'm not sure if it's lack of awareness or what. Right now we're working on the paperwork of getting written permission for fill sites so that when ISO visits this summer we have everything we need. We have a number of water sources that I'd consider "secondary" sources that we would need to utilize portable pumps at. Our "primary" sites have dry hydrants at them, and those would be the first sites we'd hit. If we needed more than one site, then we'd consider a secondary site. The portable pumps take a lot of manpower to get up and running, so they're not as good for a first-due fill site.

Andy

[volfireman034]

LVFD301 We have automatic aid for all house fires. We normally we have 12,000 gallons in route and a 4,000 gallon tank that stays at the scene incase of any "gaps" in water supply so it's pretty easy to keep up. We also usualy have a 2nd fill site.

[ddeane]

CET pumps

Don't get trapped into the thought of only using one. We commonly will set three (3) of the CET 500gpm portable pumps side by side and using a Harrington 4inch - 5 way manifold put all three into a single 4inch hose, pump this approximetaly 300 feet to an engine that "relay" pumps to the next unit. This is with an approximate elevation difference of 25 feet from the portable pumps to the first engine. The NFPA standard for tanker filling is 1000 gallons per minute so that is what we try to meet when using them.