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    LaFireEducator
    Forum Member

  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
    The fact is we have had the National Registry for EMTs for decades and while some states don't except it the overwhelming majority not only recognize it but demand it for initial licensure and some for continuing licensure.

    Even Louisiana requires National Registry for EMTs for initial licensure and then demands it for continued licensure. Funny thing is I guess a splint goes on the same in Bossier Parish as it does in Madison Wisconsin. A cervical collar and KED go on the same in Phoenix Arizona as it does in Bossier Parish. An IV gets started the same in Bossier Parish as it does in Billings Montana. How can that be? It is obvious that no NATIONAL standard can work because each locality MUST have the control to do it their own way. Right? RIIIIIIIIIIGHT!

    No disagreement. EMS treatment is EMS treatment now matter where you are. But here's the kicker. Injuries and illnesses are generally common now matter where you go, short of few exceptions like more heat related calls in LA and more cold-related calls in Montana. Throw in the occasional water call which could happen anywhere but may be a little more common on the coast or near a recreational lake or river than in the cornland of Nebraska.


    Why is it EMS has standardized NATIONAL instruction to meet a NATIONAL STANDARD for thier required skills but the fire service has to have multiple individualized standards state by state by state. Simply unbelievable.

    Someone please explain to me why basic ladder skills can't be taught the same all over the country to a single standard? How about forcible entry? Hose and nozzle operations? SCBA usage? Fire behavior? Salvage? Ventilation? Building construction? Overhaul? Auto Extrication? And more that is escaping me right now? Of course we will still need OJT and continuing education and training to keep our skills sharp and current but to me the advantages of a portable, national standard far outweigh the hardships.

    Here's a shock.. I agree. I have no issue with teaching the skills to a national cirriculum. My career department does it. My volunteer department does it that way. Our in-house testing criteria uses IFSAC. We test on the state level to IFSAC. Never disagreed on teaching to a national cirriculum.

    But again, here's my issue. The national standard simply may not fit what my district needs. Either the occupancies aren't there requiring the full package of FFI/FFII skills, or maybe a department doesn't have much of the tools, which may be rescue tools, foam or even basic forcible entry saws and tools. A department should be free to teach to what they run on and what they use using a nationally accepted cirriculum for those topics, and be able call that an in-house certification for their members. That includes testing those skills they have decided to teach to the nationally accepted testing standards.


    MABAS is becoming HUGE in my area and I can see a day when in order to respond to a MABAS box you will need to be certified at some level. It is ludicrous to call for help and have people show up with inadequate levels of training to perform properly on the fire ground.

    We are no longer able to deploy members to hurricane response that do not have a minimum of FFI certification. Technically, the officer must also be Officer I and the driver Driver/Operator. As a rule, we have enough deploy able personnel with those certifications that most of the time, we are able to meet those requirements as well.

    On the rare occasions that our neighboring city requests either a response or cover crew, we attempt to respond at that level as well, and often we are able to accomplish that.


    I see only benefits, and no downside, to a comprehensive, well though out, up to date National Standard, using the most modern and up to date teaching aids and methods.
    We actually agree more than you think on this topic.

    Leave a comment:

  • LaFireEducator
    Forum Member

  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Originally posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Arkansas -- has been an IFSAC state since 1999 I believe. A lot of firefighters from Canada paid to attend the state fire academy.
    LA - Arkansas is as or more rural (and poorer)than LA . If we can do it , yall need to get with the program. Also it cost the sponsorig FD nothing to send a rooky through the academy.
    Much of the classes here in LA are now IFSAC - FFI/II, DO Instructor I/II, FI, FO I/II/III and some others.

    They are adding 2 or 3 IFSAC classes a year.

    As far as free training, yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa right. The legislature will never allocate LSU Fire Training to do that. Thety tried to get 1/2% of the fire tax rebate to do that and it never made it out of committee.

    Rookie school is $3800. A 40-hour trench, confined space, rope or extrication class is almost $500. And with the budget cuts they are talking about, likely funding will be reduced for the '11 budget which will mean either class cuts or increased class costs.

    Leave a comment:

  • BSFD9302
    Forum Member

  • BSFD9302
    replied
    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
    Go back and find in any of my posts where I said the state couldn't go above and beond IFSAC...Go ahead I'll be back to see where you found that.
    Your right, my bad. I misread your statement at the end of your post

    I feel that I riled you up a bit. As always I mean no offense.

    Leave a comment:

  • Capt387
    Forum Member

  • Capt387
    replied
    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
    If IFSAC became the national standard it would be run through the same agences that run your state fire training now and classes would be held and criteria for practical and cognitive skills testing would be in place. No more testing out. Take the class or no certification. Seems simple beyond belief. But then again the fire service never accepts positive change without digging in its heels and crying like a new born baby.
    Agree totally

    Leave a comment:

  • FyredUp
    Forum Member

  • FyredUp
    replied
    Originally posted by BSFD9302 View Post
    What's wrong with a state requiring something above and beyond what the national curriculum requires?

    Most people who have been around awhile always see those "kids" that are fresh out of college thinking they know everything just because they have a piece of paper saying so, whether it is in the fire service or something else.

    What is the difference here? Again it is a good thing to have some kind of standards with which to gauge a persons knowledge. But, if every state is required to accept IFSAC or some other type of national certification, does this not take away States Rights? I am not talking private fire services. I am talking about public fire services.

    What it is going to come down to is if we want federal funding in the form of grants they will start requiring FDs to have all or a percent of FFs IFSAC certified. They already do that with NIMS and NFIRS.

    But again I will say it needs to be something more than just a mp test and 5 practicals.
    Go back and find in any of my posts where I said the state couldn't go above and beond IFSAC...Go ahead I'll be back to see where you found that.

    In fact, I stated that it would at least be the job of the local FDs to teach firefighters any local quirks or tricks of the trade. If your state wanted to have additional training requirements above IFSAC go ahead and do it. The point is to have a baseline for all firefighters NATIONWIDE.

    Yes, I have seen those kids with tons of paper and not one second of real world experience. I have also seen the so called "20 year veteran" that struggles every fire with his SCBA and has the phantom SCBA failure anytime the situation gets hairy. Or that can't tell you the difference between a direct, indirect and combination fire attack. Or can't do roof venting. Or raise a ladder on the same day as the fire. Or any number of tasks that are considered basic skills.

    States rights....geezus, does your state accept FIRE ACT grant money? If it does then you surrender some control to meet their standards already. Again no one is saying you can't set a higher standard than IFSAC, all I am saying is that you MUST meet that initially to be certified. If Kentucky wants to have IFSAC FF1 and then Kentucky FF1 which has more training super dee dooper for you guys.

    If IFSAC became the national standard it would be run through the same agences that run your state fire training now and classes would be held and criteria for practical and cognitive skills testing would be in place. No more testing out. Take the class or no certification. Seems simple beyond belief. But then again the fire service never accepts positive change without digging in its heels and crying like a new born baby.

    Leave a comment:

  • BSFD9302
    Forum Member

  • BSFD9302
    replied
    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
    Yep, imagine the horror if you could take FF1, FF2, Officer Certification, and Driver/Operator Certification in Wisconsin move to Washington, or California, or Maryland, or Massachusetts, or heaven forbid even Louisiana and say "HEY, I am already NATIONALLY CERTIFIED so I don't need to start over taking classes like a wet behind the ears rookie."

    You know why it will never happen? Because frankly, it makes far too much sense. It would create ONE single national curriculum for certification and too many little czars of fire training are unilling to give up that power they lord over their state's fire departments. I am not saying the individual states couldn't come up with an instate program instead of certification, but ALL certification would be based on that one national curriculum.
    What's wrong with a state requiring something above and beyond what the national curriculum requires?

    Most people who have been around awhile always see those "kids" that are fresh out of college thinking they know everything just because they have a piece of paper saying so, whether it is in the fire service or something else.

    What is the difference here? Again it is a good thing to have some kind of standards with which to gauge a persons knowledge. But, if every state is required to accept IFSAC or some other type of national certification, does this not take away States Rights? I am not talking private fire services. I am talking about public fire services.

    What it is going to come down to is if we want federal funding in the form of grants they will start requiring FDs to have all or a percent of FFs IFSAC certified. They already do that with NIMS and NFIRS.

    But again I will say it needs to be something more than just a mp test and 5 practicals.

    Leave a comment:

  • slackjawedyokel
    Forum Member

  • slackjawedyokel
    replied
    Arkansas -- has been an IFSAC state since 1999 I believe. A lot of firefighters from Canada paid to attend the state fire academy.
    LA - Arkansas is as or more rural (and poorer)than LA . If we can do it , yall need to get with the program. Also it cost the sponsorig FD nothing to send a rooky through the academy.

    Leave a comment:

  • FyredUp
    Forum Member

  • FyredUp
    replied
    The fact is we have had the National Registry for EMTs for decades and while some states don't except it the overwhelming majority not only recognize it but demand it for initial licensure and some for continuing licensure.

    Even Louisiana requires National Registry for EMTs for initial licensure and then demands it for continued licensure. Funny thing is I guess a splint goes on the same in Bossier Parish as it does in Madison Wisconsin. A cervical collar and KED go on the same in Phoenix Arizona as it does in Bossier Parish. An IV gets started the same in Bossier Parish as it does in Billings Montana. How can that be? It is obvious that no NATIONAL standard can work because each locality MUST have the control to do it their own way. Right? RIIIIIIIIIIGHT!

    Why is it EMS has standardized NATIONAL instruction to meet a NATIONAL STANDARD for thier required skills but the fire service has to have multiple individualized standards state by state by state. Simply unbelievable.

    Someone please explain to me why basic ladder skills can't be taught the same all over the country to a single standard? How about forcible entry? Hose and nozzle operations? SCBA usage? Fire behavior? Salvage? Ventilation? Building construction? Overhaul? Auto Extrication? And more that is escaping me right now? Of course we will still need OJT and continuing education and training to keep our skills sharp and current but to me the advantages of a portable, national standard far outweigh the hardships.

    MABAS is becoming HUGE in my area and I can see a day when in order to respond to a MABAS box you will need to be certified at some level. It is ludicrous to call for help and have people show up with inadequate levels of training to perform properly on the fire ground.

    I see only benefits, and no downside, to a comprehensive, well though out, up to date National Standard, using the most modern and up to date teaching aids and methods.

    Leave a comment:

  • LaFireEducator
    Forum Member

  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Most folks here know my feelings on the need for certification for initial firefighter training, so I won't go into that again.

    Given that there are clear objectives for FFI, FFII and the like, there simply should be no need for IFSAC and ProBoard. Bottom line, the learning objectives are there for every state to follow, yet, in many cases the certification is not transferable from state to state without retesting, or in some cases, retaking the class. The point of a standardized national certification is portability from state to state, yet as Fryred has said, this process has become hijacked by the state fire training agencies who want to make each state their own little fifedom.

    I support certification training as secondary post-initial training for those looking to gain further knowledge or for promotion beyond the firefighter level. I would support it much more if it was what it was meant to be - a national standard.

    Leave a comment:

  • PaladinKnight
    Forum Member

  • PaladinKnight
    replied
    This was touched on briefly by a few here, but...

    IFSTA does not state anywhere that your training ends in the last chapter. The training and course material gives you is the baseline down to earth basic knowledge. The department you serve with builds on that knowledge to develop the firefighter... you do it their way. The Certification without experience is worthless. The Experience without Certification is dangerous.

    I can take a guy that has been around many years that never took a day of classroom training and find he has much of the knowledge and skills to do the job. But without the paper, he is just another talented guy. I can't use him until he is certified.

    There are some depts that will put this guy to work, but if the crap hits the fan, the first thing that will be investigated is his certification to do the job. If he is not certified, then he is not qualified. But the same argument can be said for the guys with lots of paper without the experience.

    And as stated, a national benchmark is a long time off. In the meantime, IFSTA, IFSAC and some others are moving as far as they can within NFPA Standards. Everytime the ball moves forward in the name of safety or progress, opposition rises up to challenge the change. And while money can be made within a State, there is no motivation to migrate.

    I've been involved with IFSTA, IFSAC & Proboard for years. Nothing that they have provided to me has killed me yet. But a lot of it has saved my life.

    PK

    Leave a comment:

  • CAFS MAN
    Forum Member

  • CAFS MAN
    replied
    this is good

    I am sorry about the confusion BUT everyone seems to have caught on this is what I was looking for thanks for replying..



    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
    Of course a piece of paper doesn't automatically mean they can do the job. What it does mean is 2 thngs, a basic, generic level of training applicable everywhere, and that they had the initiative to do it. We can't assume anyone fresh from school with no real world experience is completely competent at any job. But we also can't assume because a guy has 20 years on the job that he knows a damn thing more than he learned in recruit school either.

    Tricks of the trade are local in house things to teach the firefighters about LOCAL quirks. Not something you teach nation wide. Simply a trick of the trade applicable to Nome Alaska may have no real world application in Phoenix.
    exactly I think that if you have your ifsac FF1 or FF2 or whatever than it would be the same as a FD's academy where they teach you the basics among other things sure as FyredUp says they may not be competent with the job but its a start that they should know the basics JMO... let me ask this what if the testing was based off one book company say IFSTA yes there would be mouny to be made or should it be left open to all the others.....

    Leave a comment:

  • FyredUp
    Forum Member

  • FyredUp
    replied
    Originally posted by mikeyboy View Post
    To me, a piece of paper does not mean that somebody can operate safely in this job. If somebody is new to my Crew I treat them with respect and respect their previous training, but I am still going to take them out and watch them pull hose, throw ladders, perform FF drags, pull supply line and other basic skills that I want my FFs to master.

    A National Standard would be great to have but the little "tricks of the trade" that each of us learn from doing this job is also what is needed to be passed-on.
    Of course a piece of paper doesn't automatically mean they can do the job. What it does mean is 2 thngs, a basic, generic level of training applicable everywhere, and that they had the initiative to do it. We can't assume anyone fresh from school with no real world experience is completely competent at any job. But we also can't assume because a guy has 20 years on the job that he knows a damn thing more than he learned in recruit school either.

    Tricks of the trade are local in house things to teach the firefighters about LOCAL quirks. Not something you teach nation wide. Simply a trick of the trade applicable to Nome Alaska may have no real world application in Phoenix.

    Leave a comment:

  • mikeyboy411
    MembersZone Subscriber

  • mikeyboy
    replied
    Perhaps we agree more than we disagree.
    As I see it, we agree totally..... I'm not a naysayer by any means, just feel that if we are going to have a National Standard let's make it the best Standard possible.

    Leave a comment:

  • mikeyboy411
    MembersZone Subscriber

  • mikeyboy
    replied
    Yep, imagine the horror if you could take FF1, FF2, Officer Certification, and Driver/Operator Certification in Wisconsin move to Washington, or California, or Maryland, or Massachusetts, or heaven forbid even Louisiana and say "HEY, I am already NATIONALLY CERTIFIED so I don't need to start over taking classes like a wet behind the ears rookie."
    To me, a piece of paper does not mean that somebody can operate safely in this job. If somebody is new to my Crew I treat them with respect and respect their previous training, but I am still going to take them out and watch them pull hose, throw ladders, perform FF drags, pull supply line and other basic skills that I want my FFs to master.

    A National Standard would be great to have but the little "tricks of the trade" that each of us learn from doing this job is also what is needed to be passed-on.

    Leave a comment:

  • FyredUp
    Forum Member

  • FyredUp
    replied
    Originally posted by mikeyboy View Post
    Ahhhhhhh, I re-read what I posted and if that's your interpretation then so be it.

    Look, I have been on dozens of committees for multitudes of things and generally the hardest people to come to a consensus with are thgose that immediately go to negative aspects of the project. If that wasn't your intent I apologize. I have grown weary of naysayers that always have reason and excuses why something won;t work, but rarely any better idea.


    Is this statement what your talking about? I'm a little confused here.....

    As far as me pointing out the failings of the idea, when did I do that? I'm all for a National Standard, but let's make it the most update to date information out there, let's pool the experts together and form the minimum training standards based on their experience, knowledge and training is what I said.

    I would think this would be so obvious as to not need mentioning. The idea of a NATIONAL standard would be up to date GENERIC training. Not regional specialized training or use of acronyms specific to your area. A 24 foot ladder gets raised the same in Mississippi as it does in Minnesota as it does in Massachusetts. There are several hoseloads that can be taught and any special whizz bang loads used in a specific FD can be taught there instead of wasting valuable time teaching 37 different ways to load preconnects. Generic, standardized skills, usabe everywhere with local FD tweaking if needed. Seems too good to be true.

    Perhaps we agree more than we disagree.

    Leave a comment:

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