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  • Super Sofa Store Fire

    Does anybody remember that fire and learned from it? Applied what you learned? Did CFD actually change equipment, training and porcedures after that fire?

  • #2
    Originally posted by devildog4 View Post
    Does anybody remember that fire and learned from it? Applied what you learned? Did CFD actually change equipment, training and porcedures after that fire?
    We looked at it and changed a couple of policies regarding commercial operations.

    We recognized that we were not prepared for operations of that type and developed tighter criteria for commercial go/no go policies.

    We adopted a new water supply policy regarding who lays the supply line and when.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

    Comment


    • #3
      1800' of 2.5" hose doesn't make for a good supply line. I knew that 20 years ago and I still know that.

      It's sad that a department finds that acceptable in any situation, let alone in a building that large with the known fire load.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by devildog4 View Post
        Does anybody remember that fire and learned from it? Applied what you learned? Did CFD actually change equipment, training and porcedures after that fire?
        You seem to have a weird obsession with this incident. It, and you, got pounded into the ground a couple of years ago...
        Just a typical moronic, childish, idiotic munchkin.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Whocares View Post
          You seem to have a weird obsession with this incident. It, and you, got pounded into the ground a couple of years ago...
          As long as this doesn't turn into a blame game, as compared to an honest discussion about the incident and it's lessons, IMO, it's a perfectly valid discussion.

          Discussing what we have done internally as a response to this could introduce some folks to some new ideas.

          By the way, I keep a copy of this report as well as the USFA Worcester Cold Storage Fire and USFA Oakland Hills Report, as well as a couple of other USFA incident reports close at hand on my desk. Does that mean I have a weird obsession as well?
          Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-21-2011, 08:34 AM.
          Train to fight the fires you fight.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by devildog4 View Post
            Does anybody remember that fire and learned from it? Applied what you learned? Did CFD actually change equipment, training and porcedures after that fire?
            Yes, I remember it.

            No, didn't learn anything new from it.

            Nothing to apply.

            No idea if CFD changed anything as I am not a member of CFD.....nor is it up to me to suggest/make them change anything.
            "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

            Comment


            • #7
              LA - so you keep reports close in hand that you can use to try and justify your yard standing? You cant have it both way, if you insist on undertraining on basic tasks and tactics because you dont have the "problem" in your area, why would you keep a report on a wildland urban interface fire that had condition ( weather , building construction, and topography) that central la will never see ? Absolutely nothing wrong with studing them and gleaning info that can be adapted to your needs. But to keep them "close" ? How bout an IFSTA essentials book? I bet you will see two story houses that need laddering long before you see Santa Anna winds and hundred year old cold storage buildings. We all "cherry pick " some info , thats human nature, but dont discount useable info just so you can preach your agenda.
              ?

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              • #8
                And on the sofa store fire , I use the report to instill awarness of the importance friction loss ,when teaching a water supply and also hose stream class.
                ?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
                  LA - so you keep reports close in hand that you can use to try and justify your yard standing? You cant have it both way, if you insist on undertraining on basic tasks and tactics because you dont have the "problem" in your area, why would you keep a report on a wildland urban interface fire that had condition ( weather , building construction, and topography) that central la will never see ? Absolutely nothing wrong with studing them and gleaning info that can be adapted to your needs. But to keep them "close" ? How bout an IFSTA essentials book? I bet you will see two story houses that need laddering long before you see Santa Anna winds and hundred year old cold storage buildings. We all "cherry pick " some info , thats human nature, but dont discount useable info just so you can preach your agenda.
                  I also have a Current Essentials text, a Driver/Operator text, a Vehicle Extrication text, a Safety Officer text, a Fire Service Instructor text, 3 RIT texts .......

                  The fact is as a department with a wildfire problem, especially in dry years, we can learn from Oakland Hills. We can learn from Charleston. I also have the Brent Traver report from Phoenix. Is all of that applicable to us? No. But just like FFI/II some of it applies to our operations and some of it does not.

                  The reports on LODDS in commercial operations show what level of resources are required, and often those level are simply not available in my world. And yes, those reports do help me to identify when it is appropriatte not to make entry.
                  Train to fight the fires you fight.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Missed my point - NEVER said dont read everything possible -I question why you would keep reports "close at hand" that reflect on incidents that have conditions that your area/ department will never face.And then state you put very little emphasis on basic training (such as ladders)because you will not need it due to your local conditions. Cant have it both ways.
                    ?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by devildog4 View Post
                      Does anybody remember that fire and learned from it? Applied what you learned? Did CFD actually change equipment, training and porcedures after that fire?
                      Remember it well. Read the reports. Still deeply troubled by why 9 good men failed to exit the structure. And the reports, while concise, still don't contain a real reason why. Oh, the fast build up,overflash and outcome are all there. By WHY didn't the guys see these signs? Unfortunately the only ones with those answers can't tell us. T.C.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                        We looked at it and changed a couple of policies regarding commercial operations.

                        We recognized that we were not prepared for operations of that type and developed tighter criteria for commercial go/no go policies.
                        We adopted a new water supply policy regarding who lays the supply line and when.
                        That is great and all, those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it and all that stuff. Applaud anyone who adapts to events.

                        But brother, do your guys ever get tired of you putting them down on an international website?
                        ~Drew
                        Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
                        USAR TF Rescue Specialist

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by FiremanLyman View Post
                          That is great and all, those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it and all that stuff. Applaud anyone who adapts to events.

                          But brother, do your guys ever get tired of you putting them down on an international website?
                          There is a big difference between "putting them down" because of capabilities v. resources.

                          While many of the members have training to operate in commercial structures, and some have experience the issue is manpower and resources.

                          The manpower simply does not exist in our area within the first 10-15 minutes of a commercial fire to make a hard hit and cover all of the tasks while maintaining an adequate RIT. Our first due mutual aid has 3 folks on duty with little volunteer support. 2nd due is aq city quint. 3rd due is a minmum of 15 minutes out with a duty crew of 3 and maybe, some volunteers. The numbers just do not allow us to do all the tasks needed.

                          Our closest aerial is at least 15 minutes out, with the second being at least 25.

                          Water supply is an issue at most of our commercial structures.

                          We get a serious commercial fire once every 7-9 years. The funding simply doesn't exist to buy resources for an event that occurs that infrequently.
                          We are a department built to work residental and inciepnt commercial fires. the resources simply do not exist to be aggressive in a working commercial event.
                          Train to fight the fires you fight.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                            While many of the members have training to operate in commercial structures, and some have experience the issue is manpower and resources.

                            The manpower simply does not exist in our area within the first 10-15 minutes of a commercial fire to make a hard hit and cover all of the tasks while maintaining an adequate RIT. Our first due mutual aid has 3 folks on duty with little volunteer support. 2nd due is aq city quint. 3rd due is a minmum of 15 minutes out with a duty crew of 3 and maybe, some volunteers. The numbers just do not allow us to do all the tasks needed.

                            Our closest aerial is at least 15 minutes out, with the second being at least 25.

                            Water supply is an issue at most of our commercial structures.

                            We get a serious commercial fire once every 7-9 years. The funding simply doesn't exist to buy resources for an event that occurs that infrequently.
                            We are a department built to work residental and inciepnt commercial fires. the resources simply do not exist to be aggressive in a working commercial event.
                            Dude I am gonna have to cry tactical foul here. First off for RIT it is a simple two in two out, nothing complicated or fancy to meet the requirement. If we send a engine out to mutual aid for a dept we send 4 that way generally it is on the fringes of our coverage area and generally we are there several minutes before the responding dept arrives. by sending 4 we have two firefighters in we have two out in gear ready.

                            If water supply is truly your issue then having an aerial 5 minutes away wouldn't help. If you can't supply it then it is of no use. Unless multi story is prevalent in your area then an aerial might be questionable. You know that thing they generally put on the top of new trucks over the last 25yrs that has a petty big opening will usually allow you to lob ALOT of water on the fire, I did it for years. It might not be the flare you want to see on the 10 oclock news but it still gets the job done. It is all about BTU absorbtion, put enough water on to overcome the BTU rate and the fire goes out. Pretty simple thing here dude. So, go back to the basics in tactics and go from there. As a relief shift commander a few years back I made an initial attack on a 300+ sq ft 2 story home that had been struck by lightning. I had an initial response of 10 men 2 engines and 1 aerial. In the middle of a storm we made an initial attempt at an attack but had natural ventilation was working against us and within moments the attic area exploded across and out the opposite end and resembled and sounded like a rocket going off. Closest hydrant was 1100 ft away and by the time we established a solid water supply I pulled the guys out to do a defensive attack until we got things under control. In all reality this house was ahead of us at the time of the lightning strike and the natural ventilation quickly took away all possibilities of getting ahead without a master stream. We did get it under control, saved alot of the belongings and the homeowner was very happy in the attempt and saving of his families belongings. He was able to get his insurance to start from the original foundation to the sum of 1.5 million. So it can be done, you just got to plan and train smarter.
                            Last edited by Capt387; 01-21-2011, 11:07 PM.
                            Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Capt387 View Post
                              Dude I am gonna have to cry tactical foul here. First off for RIT it is a simple two in two out, nothing complicated or fancy to meet the requirement. If we send a engine out to mutual aid for a dept we send 4 that way generally it is on the fringes of our coverage area and generally we are there several minutes before the responding dept arrives. by sending 4 we have two firefighters in we have two out in gear ready.
                              Hold it right there trigger, I have to disagree with you on that one. RIT is FAR more complicated than 2 in 2 out. 2 in 2 out was designed as a basic safety measure for first arriving companies and NOT intended to act as an incident long solution for RIT.

                              And for the most part, wether this be right wrong or indifferent, 2 in 2 out is a guideline that is often overlooked or just simply impossible. We can stretch it, and say the IC and the Pump Operator are the two out. But how reasonable is it to think the IC and PO are going to be able to act quickly enough in case of a TRUE mayday scenario. The fact is RIT these days has almost become its own specialty, and requires more to accomplish than a simple understand of 2 in 2 out . When I hear RIT, I think of a fully staffed Engine Co. with all the tools they need to handle a mayday or any emergency situation available to them on their truck. Around here, that is exactly what we get when we call for a RIT.
                              Last edited by EngineCO38; 01-21-2011, 11:37 PM. Reason: I herped so hard that I derped
                              Opinions expressed by myself here are just that, mine. And not that of ANY organization or service I am affiliated with.

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