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  • #31
    Originally posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    wait a minute ---you say "you dont see many roofs anymore" because you have young pups - well --------- just because you dont actually climb on a roof , shouldnt you be interested in learning a better/different way - to help your young "pups" do their job better ? You claim to be an educator -maybe you concept of educator is different than mine -a good teacher -(im a teacher not an "educator") should be just as much a student as a teacher. The day you quit trying to learn is the day you should quit "educating"
    Never said that we should stop learning, however my training focus has changed.

    Much od why I am being sent to directly relates to my public education and training management functions, as well as certification classes like Instructor III and Fire Inspector I/II.

    We are sending the young pups to the classes involving fire attack, ventilation, extrication and other operational, tactical subjects. I pick thier brains when they come back, so that I have an idea as to what they have been taught, and if the department decided to implement it, I get my hands dirty and learn, usually from them, how to do it.

    That being said, do I still go to operational classes? Sure, and the recent boom in gas drilling in our area has forced me, and the other supervisory folks back to the classroom on that topic. In fact, I'm scheduled to go to a train-the-trainer NFPA 1403 class here in a month or so and I still attend hands-on vehicle extrication classes on a somewhat regular basis.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

    Comment


    • #32
      la,

      What are the primary jobs of the fire department?

      Save lives and protect property. How do you do either if you already have a mindset that says most interior operations are unnecessary and dangerous?

      Your mindless, continual, droning on and on and on about lack of safety being fire service wide because people won't adhere to your standing on the front lawn spraying water in firefighting technique, is getting BORING and it is every bit as stupid today as it was the first time you posted it years ago. You equate anyone else's interior ops with a near suicidal Banzai charge into the structure. Not only is this wrong, it shows how completely out of touch you are with actual firefighting and the skill and experience that makes a good firefighter. You don't like being called a coward and I won't call you one, but you can't deny your command and firefighting style is based on fear. You always talk about your firefighters getting hurt, so much so that you said here that you would sacrifice your own family before you would let firefighters enter your home if fire was present. Sorry no, if my family was in my house and no one else was going to make an attempt, assuming the structure was viable, meaning there wasn't fire blowing from every window, you would have to kill me to stop me from trying. Funny thing is, I would give the same effort for your family. Why? because that's what firefighters do. Yep, it really is that simple.

      Once again, I couldn't begin to care less what YOU do, or rather don't do, in Bossier Parrish Louisiana. It is when you try to poison the younger firefighters that come to this site to gain knowledge from those of us that actually are firefighters, actually fight fires, actually save lives, and when appropriate put our own lives on the line for the citizens we serve, that I have to draw the line and rebutt your posts. If you would simply say this is what WE believe is right in Bossier Parrish Louisiana I wouldn't post to rebutt you. But the simple fact is you try to convince people here, that know better, that your way is the only right way. Sorry NO. The citizens that I serve expect more than just the fire department showing up with a bunch of good ole' boys spraying water from the lawn.

      The SAFE firefighter knows how to read smoke, knows the difference between lazy and pushing smoke, knows how to read the fire, where it's going, knows about building construction and when that determines go or no go, especially if the fire has escaped the compartment, know when there is still a chance for survivors and when there isn't. You see he has done all of those things, and trained on knowing how to do them. They make no excuses for why they did or didn't do something because they base decisions on sound, long used tactics and strategy. Not new wave shirking of the long standing traditions of the fire service. Will firefighters get caught on occasion and hurt or killed? Yes, they will. And we should learn from all of those instances.

      Heart attacks kill a heck of alot of guys every year. So why aren't you behind physical standards and check ups every year for your FD? Don't dance and sing and hide behind money as an excuse because you have said repeatedly over the last 2 years that money has not been an issue for your combo FD. Just straight up answer the question WHY not support that obvious life saving item?
      Last edited by FyredUp; 01-17-2011, 01:30 PM.
      Crazy, but that's how it goes
      Millions of people living as foes
      Maybe it's not too late
      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

      Comment


      • #33
        Ho Hum............

        Originally posted by tree68 View Post
        Rural operations - where this is what you often see on arrival:

        And your nearest help is still 10 minutes and more away.

        Looks like Food on the Stove. Hold 1 and 1...........
        Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
        In memory of
        Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
        Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

        IACOJ Budget Analyst

        I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

        www.gdvfd18.com

        Comment


        • #34
          LA, as I'm not a firefighter but rather a rapidly becoming ancient and most of the way retired fire photographer I've all but bitten my lip off, figuratively, in order to not reply to your posts.

          I've got to reply here. While I'm not a firefighter, I have been around the fire service in various support and buffing capacities for well over thirty-five years. I’ve photographed fire scenes in everything from a major city to deep DEEP rural country-side.

          In that over thirty-five years…Thirty-six years and about 7 months if my math’s right, well over 6000 runs if you count the calls I responded to as an EMT…I have never EVER met a firefighter or fire officer who ever said or implied ‘Don’t put the fire out, it’s too dangerous.

          Frankly I ‘ve always been under the impression that the one of the two primary jobs of firefighters…the reason they were organized centuries ago in fact was to…lets say it together here…PUT THE FIRE OUT. The other, of course, is the saving of life…but I’ll just stay with the extinguishment thing here.

          Keep in mind her that one of the departments I’m quite familiar with is known for having a very stringent safety policy. Their safety officers have safety officers. A safety officer responds automatically on *** structure fires and MVAs with entrapment. They are, again extremely safety oriented.

          . Guess what? They still go inside to fight a structure fire unless conditions are untenable due to heavy fire conditions preventing entrance, imminent or ongoing collapse, obvious indicators that the building is unstable (Leaning walls, swaybacked roof, the structure shedding bits and pieces even as you watch, etc), and Hazmat situations.

          They’re going to make a primary search unless fire conditions upon arrival preclude entry and the conditions aren’t survivable for an unprotected occupant (The two being pretty much one and the same there). They have pulled a viable patient out of a supposedly unoccupied building. They fight a good bit of fire and they leave very VERY few parking lots and/or vacant lots.

          The two City departments I run with (One I’m very familiar with…Photo One has been known to be written on the accountability board when I get to the scene of a working incident) both have untold hundreds of vacant buildings. Both go in to fight the fire. Both make searches. Early on…again unless fire conditions or structural instability make it impossible. Both put the fire out. Often and very very well. OH…They TOO have pulled viable patients out of vacant buildings.

          The rural departments I’m familiar with have the same problems all rural departments have with daytime manpower. They are also well trained, aggressive, and they have rural water supply down to an art form. And yes, if they can get inside, they do both to search and to fight fire.. If the house or structure is savable when they get on scene…they do.

          Before I get the Resources /equipment argument…Some thirty six years ago my home town, with a population of all of 800 people, had a major down town fire in an auto dealership. The building was a storefront, BIG, old, shared party walls with the B and C exposures (A closed theater and a 2/brick commercial/apt structure respectively) and had loads of open voids as well as a ramp from the first o the second floor. The fire building flashed over early on. It got in the second floor of the ‘C’ exposure before the second due company arrived on scene from 3 miles out.

          Their first out rig was a Ford/Bean 750/750. Second out rig a ’67 Ford/Howe 500/1000. Third out ’56 Ford/Howe 500/500.

          Second in company was three miles away…their 1st out engine was a 58 or 59 Ford/Oren 500/500. Second piece a ’46 or ’47 Chevy/Oren. All other companies were 9+ miles away with comparable equipment. Largest mains were 6 inch. Nearest aerial apparatus was 25+ Miles away.

          They lost the building of origin and the ‘C’ exposure (There was a railroad right of way next to it creating a nice BIG fire break.) There were however, numerous 2 story brick commercial buildings beyond the B exposure. They could have easily lost a quarter or more of the down town area. They didn’t. Because they suited up, put on masks, went in the ‘B’ exposure, pulled walls and ceilings and cut the fire off. This same department, about 6 years earlier saved much of a 3000 square foot rancher that was 50% involved and through the roof when they got on scene…they went inside with big lines AND PUT THE FIRE OUT! The ’56 Ford/Howe was first out then. The Bean wasn’t bought for another 4 years or so.

          I’ve, by the way, seen both rural departments I respond with as photographer AND my home county keep 1000 gallons a minute or more flowing using portable tanks and a tanker shuttle. I saw my home county do it on a Thanksgiving morning with the apparatus noted above and several tankers of comparable vintage. The house they responded to is still standing to this day.

          Again, I’ve met many many fire fighters from all types of departments over the last nearly 4 decades. Not one…not a single solitary one…would ever even momentarily contemplate standing in the front yard of a house and letting it burn because ‘It was too dangerous to put the fire out’ Instead they go inside and PUT THE FIRE OUT.

          Again, LA, I’m not a firefighter…but if lots of people who are firefighters tell me I’m wrong about something having to do with firefighting…I’d pretty much bet that they’re right.

          Sorry this was so long guys…especially from one who doesn’t post often.

          Off to work now.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
            la,

            What are the primary jobs of the fire department?

            Save lives and protect property. How do you do either if you already have a mindset that says most interior operations are unnecessary and dangerous?

            Depending on the community, the number of interior operations that are uneccessary vary. In my community operating in any abondoned structure serves no purpose. None. Operating in vacants serve limited purpose but must be measured against the fact that the only gain may be saving a structure without contents. I have never said operating in occupied structures with or without lives is without purpose, but again, when the rubber meets the road, it is our lives that should have the higest value, even when compared to civilian lives. The ability of department must be evaluated by the department and limits set as to when they will and will not operate in an occupied structure, and that may vary quite a bit. There is a lot that can happen in a structure and all of that must be weighed against the gain.

            Your mindless, continual, droning on and on and on about lack of safety being fire service wide because people won't adhere to your standing on the front lawn spraying water in firefighting technique, is getting BORING and it is every bit as stupid today as it was the first time you posted it years ago. You equate anyone else's interior ops with a near suicidal Banzai charge into the structure. Not only is this wrong, it shows how completely out of touch you are with actual firefighting and the skill and experience that makes a good firefighter. You don't like being called a coward and I won't call you one, but you can't deny your command and firefighting style is based on fear. You always talk about your firefighters getting hurt, so much so that you said here that you would sacrifice your own family before you would let firefighters enter your home if fire was present. Sorry no, if my family was in my house and no one else was going to make an attempt, assuming the structure was viable, meaning there wasn't fire blowing from every window, you would have to kill me to stop me from trying. Funny thing is, I would give the same effort for you family. Why? because that's what firefighters do. Yep, it really is that simple.

            That last line sums up my issue. Why do we do it? Is it because we have conducted athourough risk v. benefit analaysis? Or is it because we're fireman and we're supposed to go interior whenever we can because, well, that's what we do? Again I beleive in taking risk when there is a measurable gain. I beleive in taking risk to save lives when the experience, training and resources are on-hand to do so. I did at one time, but no longer beielive in taking risks simply "because we're fireman".

            I fully realize that departments are able to function at differing levels. There are some here that either chose not to accept that or can't (or refuse) to look beyond thier peice of the world.

            There are departments that can be very aggressive all the time and operate within a safety margin. There are departments that must pick and choose depending on fire conditions and/or volunteer response. There are departments that can only conduct very limited interior operations safely.They all do "the job". The outcomes do vary.

            I see that every day with my combo and volunteer departments. Part of that is full-time staffing which garuntees a minimum response. Part of that is volunteer availability. Part of that is apparatus, training, experience and water supply. What would be a routine interior operation to my combo FD would pose a significant risk to my volunteer department much of the time. The fact is some people here are not very good at recognizing that and make blanket expectations regarding what they expect all firefighters and all fire departments to do in a given situation without regard to the other factors described above. Departments have differing abilities, and will always have differing abilities no matter how much they train, and it's not my place, nor anyone else's place to tell them what they should do to be considered real firefighters and real fire departments. There are departments that cannot operate interior, and I accept that. Folks on here need to get a grip and accept that as well. You don't. So be it.

            Yes, I fear a member getting hurt as to me, that is unaccepatable,, and yes, I make decsions not based on the outcome of the incident but on if this operation or specific assignment puts a member, especially a volunteer member, at risk for injury. As a supervisor, that is my primary responsibility. By responding and making my best effort I have fufilled my responsibility to the citizen. Now I have to fufill my responsibility to the member that they will walk out of the fire station without a trip to the hospital.


            Once again, I couldn't begin to care less what YOU do, or rather don't do, in Bossier Parrish Louisiana. It is when you try to poison the younger firefighters that come to this site to gain knowledge from those of us that actually are firefighters, actually fight fires, actually save lives, and when appropriate put our own lives on the line for the citizens we serve, that I have to draw the line and rebutt your posts. If you would simply say this is what WE believe is right in Bossier Parrish Louisiana I wouldn't post to rebutt you. But the simple fact is you try to convince people here, that know better, that your way is the only right way. Sorry NO. The citizens that I serve expect more than just the fired department showing up with a bunch of good ole' boys spraying water from the lawn.

            Sorry, but the young firefighters here have a right to here an alternate view when members quote personnel like LT McCormack. Hard to beleive, there are many other that feel how I do, both in the real world and on here. Many of them won't post because of the way they may be percieved or treated.

            There are members here who still beleive that we should operate in every building, not because of gain or risk v. benefit, but because "it's our job" and "we're firefighters". Sorry, but I'm not going to let that kind of thinking go unopposed. I wish my combo department was as conservative as I was. That would be a wonderful thing. But they are not, and I fear the day when we have somebody seriously hurt operating in a structure that should have been hot from the exterior only. I would love to see more more restraint than what we exercise.

            It's not the members of my career FD that I worry about as much, as they have much more experience and training overall, as the members of my VFD who may try to do too much with too little.


            The SAFE firefighter knows how to read smoke, knows the difference between lazy and pushing smoke, knows how to read the fire, where it's going, knows about building construction and when that determines go or no go, especially if the fire has escaped the compartment, know when there is still a chance for survivors and when there isn't. You see he has done all of those things, and trained on knowing how to do them. They make no excuses for why they did or didn't do something because they base decisions on sound, long used tactics and strategy. Not new wave shirking of the long standing traditions of the fire service. Will firefighters get caught on occasion and hurt or killed? Yes, they will. And we should learn from all of those instances.

            And I view that as unacceptable, at least under my watch. I encourage training. I support additional required training. I support members getting certifications on a voluntary basis. I teach addtional training on my own time for free, so don't lecture me on training and it's value. as far as keeping members safe.

            But at the end of the day, you operate with what you have, and your decisions need to focus around thier welfare, not the outcome of the incident. I don't accept injuries as unavoidable. Most injuries happen because a decsion has been made to operate in a given way when there were options. Sorry, injuries just don't happen.


            Heart attacks kill a heck of alot of guys every year. So why aren't you behind physical standards and check ups every year for your FD? Don't dance and sing and hide behind money as an excuse because you have said repeatedly over the last 2 years that money has not been an issue for your combo FD. Just straight up answer the question WHY not support that obvious life saving item?
            I have stated before and will again that I would not oppose yearly physicals on my combo FD for all members. We have the resources to do it and enough volunteer manpower to absordboth the financial and manpower hit. I will not push for it as the current command staff has not shown an interest, but I would not oppose it.

            As far as my VFD the funding simply does not exist without some significant hits in other safety areas such as PPE and training. While we are youing I would guesstimate a loss of 2 to 3 members depending on the level of the physical and the go/no go parameters. At this point, without funding assistance, I would oppose it there.

            I also support starting with the low hanging fruit which is slower, safer, more controlled driving. Buckling up. Full stops at all red lights and stop signs. Slowing down coming into a green and increased driver requirements especially in the volunteer service.
            Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-17-2011, 02:07 PM.
            Train to fight the fires you fight.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by tree68 View Post
              Rural operations - where this is what you often see on arrival:

              And your nearest help is still 10 minutes and more away.
              This may be true. But have you read anywhere here or other threads that advocate even attempting a primary search or roof operations in a situation like this?
              but again, when the rubber meets the road, it is our lives that should have the higest value, even when compared to civilian lives
              That is your biggest failing and what separates you from those that understand the sacrifice this job entails; you are selfish. You, under the guise of firefighter safety, are more worried about your own a s s than that of your fellow firefighters or citizens you claim to serve.
              My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
              "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
              George Mason
              Co-author of the Second Amendment
              during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
              Elevator Rescue Information

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by SPFDRum View Post
                That is your biggest failing and what separates you from those that understand the sacrifice this job entails; you are selfish. You, under the guise of firefighter safety, are more worried about your own a s s than that of your fellow firefighters or citizens you claim to serve.

                No real point in discussing this any further.
                Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-17-2011, 03:17 PM.
                Train to fight the fires you fight.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                  Rural operations - where this is what you often see on arrival:

                  And your nearest help is still 10 minutes and more away.
                  Anyone with half a brain... hell, anyone with a minimum of three functioning brain cells will recognize that fact that it is a purely defensive surround and drown operation.

                  Posted by SPFDRum
                  This may be true. But have you read anywhere here or other threads that advocate even attempting a primary search or roof operations in a situation like this?
                  Let me think.... nope!
                  Posted by LA
                  but again, when the rubber meets the road, it is our lives that should have the higest value, even when compared to civilian lives
                  Ever drive a muscle car or a high perfomance vehicle, LA? You drive it in a sedate, stately manner around town.... but every once in a while you get the opportunity to floor it, spin the tires and burn a little rubber... well, a firefighter doing his/her duty is a lot like that car... most of the day to day responses to afas, medicals, inspections and such is like driving the car and going with the flow... but when the tones drop for a structure fire with people trapped... you have to burn rubber to do the job. That's the fact.

                  also posted by SFPDRum
                  That is your biggest failing and what separates you from those that understand the sacrifice this job entails; you are selfish. You, under the guise of firefighter safety, are more worried about your own a s s than that of your fellow firefighters or citizens you claim to serve.
                  Posted by LA
                  No real point in discussing this any further.
                  Then.. back away from the keyboard...
                  ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                  Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by DCG
                    Anyone with half a brain... hell, anyone with a minimum of three functioning brain cells will recognize that fact that it is a purely defensive surround and drown operation.
                    Originally posted by FPFDRum
                    This may be true. But have you read anywhere here or other threads that advocate even attempting a primary search or roof operations in a situation like this?
                    You're right. Unless it was LA saying he wouldn't go in, in which case he'd be cast as a coward who didn't deserve to call himself a firefighter...

                    Let's face it - regardless of the bravado so many portray here on the forum, there are times when we don't go in, we don't ladder, we don't VES, we don't risk all because to do so would be fruitless.

                    That picture portrays one of them.

                    Maybe some folks here never encounter such conditions. If so, lucky you. Many of us do.
                    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                      You're right. Unless it was LA saying he wouldn't go in, in which case he'd be cast as a coward who didn't deserve to call himself a firefighter...

                      Let's face it - regardless of the bravado so many portray here on the forum, there are times when we don't go in, we don't ladder, we don't VES, we don't risk all because to do so would be fruitless.

                      That picture portrays one of them.

                      Maybe some folks here never encounter such conditions. If so, lucky you. Many of us do.

                      On a fairly regular basis.

                      The best departments in the world can't shorten the distance between point A and point B.
                      Train to fight the fires you fight.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                        You're right. Unless it was LA saying he wouldn't go in, in which case he'd be cast as a coward who didn't deserve to call himself a firefighter...

                        Let's face it - regardless of the bravado so many portray here on the forum, there are times when we don't go in, we don't ladder, we don't VES, we don't risk all because to do so would be fruitless.

                        That picture portrays one of them.

                        Maybe some folks here never encounter such conditions. If so, lucky you. Many of us do.
                        Do tell, or rather show, us where ANYONE here said there are NEVER any circumstances where entry isn't possible. I myself have said repeatedly that you would not enter a building with fire blowing out of every door and window or that was structurally unsound.

                        I have also repeatedly said we MUST enter if conditions allow, knocking down the fire, committing to an interior attack, in an attempt to locate and rescue potential victims. IF CONDITIONS ALLOW. The prime issue is what defines that situation. Mine is so different from LA's as can be possibly believed. That does not make me crazy, stupid or suicidal.
                        Crazy, but that's how it goes
                        Millions of people living as foes
                        Maybe it's not too late
                        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Your right la - the best department cant "shorten the distance" but they can strive to arrive in a timely manner, perform their assigned duties without hesitation and to the best of their abilities. That is a mindset - and it comes from leadership. No one is claiming to save them all , but to not train/plan for the worst because it hasnt happened or its not likely - is short changing ,not only the citizens , but yourselves.
                          ?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                            I have also repeatedly said we MUST enter if conditions allow, knocking down the fire, committing to an interior attack, in an attempt to locate and rescue potential victims. IF CONDITIONS ALLOW.
                            There's our problem - defining exactly when those conditions exist.

                            I don't recall anyone ever saying that they wouldn't enter, knock down the fire, etc, when conditions allow.

                            It appears to me that some folks don't seem to accept that there are times when the risk outweighs the potential benefit.
                            Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                            Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by deputychiefgonzo View Post
                              from urbanfirefighter.com
                              couldn't be said any better!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                                There's our problem - defining exactly when those conditions exist.
                                And you'll never be able to define them. What I would enter may not be what you'd enter, or vice versa. What I would allow one guy to enter I won't another. Far too many variables to try to define.

                                Comment

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