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  • #16
    Well..........

    I'm neither Attacking nor Backing anyone in this discussion specifically. What I am saying is that there is room for discussion and variances in procedures. We've all said (and largely agreed) this isn't England (No Disrespect) where a "One size Fits all" or "Cookie Cutter" approach is warranted. In my area, where our "Normal" Big Fire is a multi alarm job in a Garden Apartment Building, we have adequate resources to "Go Big, Go Hard, Go Fast" from the Start. The Firefighting Triangle -Firemen, Apparatus, Water - are there and ready to go to work. I am quite aware that there are a lot of places where that just isn't the case. We operate Agressively, but Safely. This isn't hard to do, as long as you train that way, work that way, and have the resources. When something is missing, you have to adapt. When you find youself in that position, your operations change, and the outcome changes, sometimes dramatically...........
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

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    • #17
      Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
      But that is why I do post.
      .
      Shhh... The Firefighters are talking now.


      This thread, like 99% of the others you threadjack should end after 3 posts: Agree to disagree and move on.
      So you call this your free country
      Tell me why it costs so much to live
      -3dd

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
        Never said he was suicidal.

        The fact is however his world is very different from my world, in terms of occupancies and hazards, resources, averafe training and experience and water supply.

        He is operating in a world with different parameters, therefore his idea of accepatable risk and an attackable fire is much different from mine, and certainly most of the departments in this area of the state.

        Whikle there may be things I could learn from him, there is very little that would apply to either my combo, or especially my volunteer operations. Without that relevance, attending a class of his would likely be pointless.
        And THAT would be where you are WRONG! VERY wrong! You could learn a LOT from Ray but you WON'T be bothered cause he doesn't fit in your microscopic view of what you percieve this business is all about. Given the same parameters, NATIONWIDE,99% of us are on the same page. Not so sure where YOU are but it's NOT with the HIGH percentile. I've found Ray's methodology to work well here as does Ciampo and Dugas's musings. Oh,we approach it a LITTLE differently but the methods save LABOR,increase SAFETY and make the job go smoother. But you will NEVER know if you don't get your head out and attend a class. If you prefer the yard,disregard the previous message. T.C.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
          And THAT would be where you are WRONG! VERY wrong! You could learn a LOT from Ray but you WON'T be bothered cause he doesn't fit in your microscopic view of what you percieve this business is all about. Given the same parameters, NATIONWIDE,99% of us are on the same page. Not so sure where YOU are but it's NOT with the HIGH percentile. I've found Ray's methodology to work well here as does Ciampo and Dugas's musings. Oh,we approach it a LITTLE differently but the methods save LABOR,increase SAFETY and make the job go smoother. But you will NEVER know if you don't get your head out and attend a class. If you prefer the yard,disregard the previous message. T.C.
          I prefer to attend classes with instructors that operate in my world, as they tend to deliver more relevant material.

          I just find that I get far more out of them.
          Train to fight the fires you fight.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
            I prefer to attend classes with instructors that operate in my world, as they tend to deliver more relevant material.

            I just find that I get far more out of them.
            Never been to a class with ANY Instructor that operates in anything I could identify as "Your" world. Still TRYING to figure out what that is. Just WHO might these Instructors be? AND......If you've NEVER attended on of Ray's classes,HOW do you KNOW that the material he delivers would NOT be revelant? Short answer.........You DON'T.

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            • #21
              The joke is that you actually believe you are in a position to question what he or any other fire service leader has to say.

              You're delusional.
              Career Firefighter
              Volunteer Captain

              -Professional in Either Role-

              Originally posted by Rescue101
              I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
                Never been to a class with ANY Instructor that operates in anything I could identify as "Your" world. Still TRYING to figure out what that is. Just WHO might these Instructors be? AND......If you've NEVER attended on of Ray's classes,HOW do you KNOW that the material he delivers would NOT be revelant? Short answer.........You DON'T.
                Much of what we take is classes, in terms of fireground operations, is delivered by instructors from LA and east TX through LSU FETI and TEEX. As a rule, they are delivered by local full-time or adjunct instructors.

                The same was true in VT where most of the classes I took were delivered by local or regional instructors familiar with local and regional conditions and operations thriough regional classes and schools. There was no state academy.

                My classes in NY were fairly standardized for statewide application but delivered locally by local state instuctors who could add and delete some material based on local conditions. I never did attend the State Fire Academy while there.

                I guess I prefer to take fireground classes from local instructors that know the local building stock and resources, and teach to that. While it may be good information to know how fires behaves in a mid-rise, or how trucks can be effectivly used in an operation it has no relevance if the department doesn't have a mid-rise or only utilzes truck in a master stream role.

                While I have never taken a fireground class from the LT, or any other instructor with a primarily or all urban background I honestly have no idea what they could bring to the table in terms of tanker shuttle operations, operations in mobile homes or many of the other issues we face.

                That being said, I have taken many public education and juvenile firesetting classes from national instructors. I have also taken a couple of smoke reading classes and very generic operations classes where local conditions were fairly irrelevant to the material

                He may teach a great class. When he does a class exclusive to single family residences and mobile homes using rural water operations, I may think about attending. Until then, there probably isn't very much that I can use.
                Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-17-2011, 11:41 AM.
                Train to fight the fires you fight.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by GTRider245 View Post
                  The joke is that you actually believe you are in a position to question what he or any other fire service leader has to say.

                  You're delusional.
                  Actually, anybody should be in a postion to question any fire service leader.
                  Train to fight the fires you fight.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                    Much of what we take is classes, in terms of fireground operations, is delivered by instructors from LA and east TX through LSU FETI and TEEX. As a rule, they are delivered by local full-time or adjunct instructors.

                    The same was true in VT where most of the classes I took were delivered by local or regional instructors familiar with local and regional conditions and operations thriough regional classes and schools. There was no state academy.

                    My classes in NY were fairly standardized for statewide application but delivered locally by local state instuctors who could add and delete some material based on local conditions. I never did attend the State Fire Academy while there.

                    I guess I prefer to take fireground classes from local instructors that know the local building stock and resources, and teach to that. While it may be good information to know how fires behaves in a mid-rise, or how trucks can be effectivly used in an operation it has no relevance if the department doesn't have a mid-rise or only utilzes truck in a master stream role.

                    While I have never taken a fireground class from the LT, or any other instructor with a primarily or all urban background I honestly have no idea what they could bring to the table in terms of tanker shuttle operations, operations in mobile homes or many of the other issues we face.

                    That being said, I have taken many public education and juvenile firesetting classes from national instructors. I have also taken a couple of smoke reading classes and very generic operations classes where local conditions were fairly irrelevant to the material

                    He may teach a great class. When he does a class exclusive to single family residences and mobile homes using rural water operations, I may think about attending. Until then, there probably isn't very much that I can use.
                    Like I said,DON'T judge a "Book" UNLESS you've cracked the cover. Ray covers ALL that and MORE. While he MAY work in the CITY,he's equally comfortable in a rural setting, Much like Dugas and Ciampo,, a roof is a roof and optimising operations is what THEY do. If you don't get on a roof,then it probably doesn't affect you much. BTW, this covers ALL roofs whether they are 1 story or 23 stories.Try OUTSIDE the box,it's MUCH less confining. T.C.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
                      Like I said,DON'T judge a "Book" UNLESS you've cracked the cover. Ray covers ALL that and MORE. While he MAY work in the CITY,he's equally comfortable in a rural setting, Much like Dugas and Ciampo,, a roof is a roof and optimising operations is what THEY do. If you don't get on a roof,then it probably doesn't affect you much. BTW, this covers ALL roofs whether they are 1 story or 23 stories.Try OUTSIDE the box,it's MUCH less confining. T.C.
                      Rural operations - where this is what you often see on arrival:

                      And your nearest help is still 10 minutes and more away.
                      Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                      Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
                        Like I said,DON'T judge a "Book" UNLESS you've cracked the cover. Ray covers ALL that and MORE. While he MAY work in the CITY,he's equally comfortable in a rural setting, Much like Dugas and Ciampo,, a roof is a roof and optimising operations is what THEY do. If you don't get on a roof,then it probably doesn't affect you much. BTW, this covers ALL roofs whether they are 1 story or 23 stories.Try OUTSIDE the box,it's MUCH less confining. T.C.
                        Given my available outside training time is being decreased due to increasing in-house training and public education duties, as well as additional certification requirements for my position, the time I have to go outside the box is more and more limited.

                        Again, in a world with unlimited time, training beyond the box is a very good thing. In a world with limited time, my priority is localized training delivered by local instructors.

                        I don't see many roofs anymore as we have a bunch of young pups to do the heavy lifting and I'm being moved more into command & control roles.

                        I simply do not agree with the LTs message, especially for many rural departments. I find him too concerned with putting out the fire and less concerned with firefighter safety. Sorry, but that is how I see him and read him. He may be a wonderful guy and be awfully fun at parties, but I'm sure we would disagree if we ever met.
                        Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-17-2011, 12:14 PM.
                        Train to fight the fires you fight.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                          He may be a wonderful guy and be awfully fun at parties, but I'm sure we would disagree if we ever met.
                          You'd disagree if Yogi Bear and Boo-Boo told you to put out a camp fire.
                          Co 11
                          Virginia Beach FD

                          Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

                          'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JohnVBFD View Post
                            You'd disagree if Yogi Bear and Boo-Boo told you to put out a camp fire.
                            Depends on how cold it is and if I still have some weenies to roast.
                            Train to fight the fires you fight.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              wait a minute ---you say "you dont see many roofs anymore" because you have young pups - well --------- just because you dont actually climb on a roof , shouldnt you be interested in learning a better/different way - to help your young "pups" do their job better ? You claim to be an educator -maybe you concept of educator is different than mine -a good teacher -(im a teacher not an "educator") should be just as much a student as a teacher. The day you quit trying to learn is the day you should quit "educating"
                              ?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                                Rural operations - where this is what you often see on arrival:

                                And your nearest help is still 10 minutes and more away.
                                Tree,we see those. ON OCCASION. Certainly IS NOT our bread and butter. We're primarily rural and we manage to save quite a lot of property. In ten or 15 minutes I can have a LOT of help on scene. T.C.

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