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  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Originally posted by hwoods View Post
    I'm not suggesting that you take on another job, but there should be someone that is active at the State level that can Start talking to the Leadership of any and all Fire Service Groups in the State to get the ball rolling. I can't imagine that there aren't at least a few out there who can see the advantages of organizing like we did......
    There are members of the State Firefighters Association that do lobby. There are members of the Arson and Fire prevention Association, which is a reasonable mix of volunteer and career departments, though with a very limited membership who lobby on prevention related bills and topics. And The career fire department association also has a lobbyist. The problem is they are often lobbying on different sides of the same bill or topic.

    The A & FP Assoication tends to aling itself more withe the State Fireman's Association more often than not.

    There have been areas of cooperation but that is more the exception than the rule.

    Vhief. one thing to consider is the unique playing field of the LA fire service. In many areas of the state, the urban career departments are actively involved in annexing, or attempting to annex parts of the well off suburban combo departments, which obviously creates some tension and mistrust between the two groups that does hinder cooperation. I know that our neighboring career department would love to have part of our district, and we recently had open areas which we had been covering for 25 years annexed by a neighboring small city department just prior to the fields being turned into a high-dollar housing development in a pre-construction deal with the builder. We still get along with the small city department, but the constant worry of annexation by the larger city has created some significant tension.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-31-2010, 09:00 PM.

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  • hwoods
    replied
    Well...........

    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We don't have such an animal in the state. the volunteer and smaller primarily volunteer departments usually flock to the State Fireman's Association and the primarily career combo or all career departments belong to their organization.

    There doesn't seem to be very much communication, coordination or cooperation between the two groups as they often pursue differing agendas ion the same topic.

    On occasion it happens, like the workman's compensation issue for volunteer departments, but even then there was great rift in the career organization between the departments that used volunteer departments for mutual aid, and needed to support them, and those who didn't use VFDs in their mutual aid response. They didn't want to see any change coming out of their pockets to resolve the crisis, which if left unresolved, would have been a 100% loss of workman's comp insurance to all the VFDs in the state.

    I wish things were diffeernt on the legislative front, but they are not.

    I'm not suggesting that you take on another job, but there should be someone that is active at the State level that can Start talking to the Leadership of any and all Fire Service Groups in the State to get the ball rolling. I can't imagine that there aren't at least a few out there who can see the advantages of organizing like we did......

    Leave a comment:


  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Originally posted by dday05 View Post
    I guess it is your situation to deal with. I think min of FFI should be implemented. Who says everyone is getting the "proper" training? It sounds like the training earlier could be easily pencil whipped in my opinion... Therefore you could have a person being taught in a very poor manner or just even getting on the job training at that. Lets say you have dept abc that pulls a booster on everything. The new person is going to be taught to pull a booster line and taught their old tactics that could get them in some trouble... (just an example) maybe I am looking to much into this.
    Do agree that there could be, and probably is some pencil whipping occurring in some departments regarding training.

    Standardized training to the level of FFI will result in a loss of personnel in our state. Right or wrong, there are members of the smaller departments that simply do not have the time, or will be unwilling to put the time in to get the certification. The 50-hour class, without the FFI requirement after 3 years, was a good plan and a reasonable compromise, which is why I supported it. Strangely enough, the Deputy Chief would have preferred that I supported the FFI plan, however, he gave me the flexability to go in the way that I thought best.

    That being said, even that plan would create a manpower loss, though not nearly as severe as the loss FFI would have or will create.

    In addition the financial effect on the very small rural departments would be significant. Any requirement must be supported by funding which is, along with the lack of support from the career departments, the proposal never made it out of committee.

    I understand the training issues you have mentioned, but bottom line, operations are local so training must be local. if a department chooses to use a booster line on structure fires, or simply spray water through the windows, that is how they operate and right or wrong, that is how the members must be trained.

    Leave a comment:


  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Originally posted by hwoods View Post
    I guess this falls under another "Different Strokes, Different Folks" thing, but we don't have that problem in Maryland. I'm not claiming that we're the Best, or that our way is the Right way, but we do get a lot accomplished thru the political process. We manage that because we all work together to provide a unified front for all the Fire Service. Each Friday morning while the Legislature is in session, at least one representative of each of the State's Fire Service organizations attends a meeting where we discuss Legislation and work out a plan to get it passed or defeated, depending on our position. At least half a dozen, usually more, groups will have someone attend, and if needed, testify on proposed bills in Committee hearings. It may not be perfect, but it works for us........
    We don't have such an animal in the state. the volunteer and smaller primarily volunteer departments usually flock to the State Fireman's Association and the primarily career combo or all career departments belong to their organization.

    There doesn't seem to be very much communication, coordination or cooperation between the two groups as they often pursue differing agendas ion the same topic.

    On occasion it happens, like the workman's compensation issue for volunteer departments, but even then there was great rift in the career organization between the departments that used volunteer departments for mutual aid, and needed to support them, and those who didn't use VFDs in their mutual aid response. They didn't want to see any change coming out of their pockets to resolve the crisis, which if left unresolved, would have been a 100% loss of workman's comp insurance to all the VFDs in the state.

    I wish things were diffeernt on the legislative front, but they are not.

    Leave a comment:


  • dday05
    replied
    Originally posted by hwoods View Post
    I guess this falls under another "Different Strokes, Different Folks" thing, but we don't have that problem in Maryland. I'm not claiming that we're the Best, or that our way is the Right way, but we do get a lot accomplished thru the political process. We manage that because we all work together to provide a unified front for all the Fire Service. Each Friday morning while the Legislature is in session, at least one representative of each of the State's Fire Service organizations attends a meeting where we discuss Legislation and work out a plan to get it passed or defeated, depending on our position. At least half a dozen, usually more, groups will have someone attend, and if needed, testify on proposed bills in Committee hearings. It may not be perfect, but it works for us........
    Mr. Woods I agree. When we go to the hands on class at the expo seems as the fire service is very unified from when we talk to people (from your state) in ways such as training and departmental operations etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • dday05
    replied
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Bottom line I have mixed feelings about standards.

    When the idea of the minimum training standards was discussed at the State Firefighters Convention a few years ago, the debate was rather heated as their was a group that supported the 50-hour class (myself included), FFI, and no standards at all.

    The discussion on the floor was very interesting and during a break the hallway discussions were even more interesting.

    In the end, the 50-hour class passed with an addition of a cluase stating that a member would have 3 years to obtain FFI after completing the mini-class, or they would have to repeat the mini-class. I disagreed with that, but compromise won out.

    I would have no problem with a standard if, and only if, there was guaranteed funding to LSU Fire training to train rural instructors to teach the class and certify the students in-house, as well as provide training materials at state, not local cost. This is important as many rural VFDs in the state don't have any FFIIs much less Instructor Is or IIs, which using current protocol, would be required to sign off on any cert practicals.

    To a rural department, training standards can be an real issue, especially if there is no funding to back that it up. There would also have to be a fairly long time to require implementation, and there would have to be a mechanism for members who may lapse to still serve.

    That being said, I'm not in a position to get the ball rolling at the state level. I spend a fair amount of time working with the State Arson and Public Education Association, which leaves me little time for any other statewide activities.
    I guess it is your situation to deal with. I think min of FFI should be implemented. Who says everyone is getting the "proper" training? It sounds like the training earlier could be easily pencil whipped in my opinion... Therefore you could have a person being taught in a very poor manner or just even getting on the job training at that. Lets say you have dept abc that pulls a booster on everything. The new person is going to be taught to pull a booster line and taught their old tactics that could get them in some trouble... (just an example) maybe I am looking to much into this.

    Leave a comment:


  • hwoods
    replied
    Well..........

    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    A few years ago the State Firefighters Association, working with LSU Fire Training developed a 50-hour rookie class.

    It was proposed to the legislature as the state training minimum standard, but never made it out of committee, in part because the career fire services gave it little support.

    There have been no attempts since then to implement a standard.

    I guess this falls under another "Different Strokes, Different Folks" thing, but we don't have that problem in Maryland. I'm not claiming that we're the Best, or that our way is the Right way, but we do get a lot accomplished thru the political process. We manage that because we all work together to provide a unified front for all the Fire Service. Each Friday morning while the Legislature is in session, at least one representative of each of the State's Fire Service organizations attends a meeting where we discuss Legislation and work out a plan to get it passed or defeated, depending on our position. At least half a dozen, usually more, groups will have someone attend, and if needed, testify on proposed bills in Committee hearings. It may not be perfect, but it works for us........

    Leave a comment:


  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Originally posted by dday05 View Post
    Why not talk to someone and get the ball rolling then?
    Bottom line I have mixed feelings about standards.

    When the idea of the minimum training standards was discussed at the State Firefighters Convention a few years ago, the debate was rather heated as their was a group that supported the 50-hour class (myself included), FFI, and no standards at all.

    The discussion on the floor was very interesting and during a break the hallway discussions were even more interesting.

    In the end, the 50-hour class passed with an addition of a cluase stating that a member would have 3 years to obtain FFI after completing the mini-class, or they would have to repeat the mini-class. I disagreed with that, but compromise won out.

    I would have no problem with a standard if, and only if, there was guaranteed funding to LSU Fire training to train rural instructors to teach the class and certify the students in-house, as well as provide training materials at state, not local cost. This is important as many rural VFDs in the state don't have any FFIIs much less Instructor Is or IIs, which using current protocol, would be required to sign off on any cert practicals.

    To a rural department, training standards can be an real issue, especially if there is no funding to back that it up. There would also have to be a fairly long time to require implementation, and there would have to be a mechanism for members who may lapse to still serve.

    That being said, I'm not in a position to get the ball rolling at the state level. I spend a fair amount of time working with the State Arson and Public Education Association, which leaves me little time for any other statewide activities.

    Leave a comment:


  • dday05
    replied
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    A few years ago the State Firefighters Association, working with LSU Fire Training developed a 50-hour rookie class.

    It was proposed to the legislature as the state training minimum standard, but never made it out of committee, in part because the career fire services gave it little support.

    There have been no attempts since then to implement a standard.
    Why not talk to someone and get the ball rolling then?

    Leave a comment:


  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Originally posted by dday05 View Post
    So what happens if something were to happen to lets say a JR was interrior over hauling and a roof comes down on them. Who goes to court? Who is responsible for that person? The chief? Or does the DC take the fall?
    Being it's a department operating policy to allow the junior to be in that position, I would suspect the Chief would be ultimately responsible.

    I would also suspect that The Board of Commissioners would have some legal responsibility as well, but that's the firehouse lawyer in me.

    Leave a comment:


  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Originally posted by dday05 View Post
    I would think with all the safety and what not I would be in line for standardized training for LA across the board... Just saying
    A few years ago the State Firefighters Association, working with LSU Fire Training developed a 50-hour rookie class.

    It was proposed to the legislature as the state training minimum standard, but never made it out of committee, in part because the career fire services gave it little support.

    There have been no attempts since then to implement a standard.

    Leave a comment:


  • dday05
    replied
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Any senior firefighter or officer can check off a probationary member on a skill, either in a one-on-one session, or after a group training session where the member has demonstrated the skill.

    The member must be able to demonstrate the skill acting alone, or if it's a multi-person skill, such as raising a ladder with 2-men, he/she must take the lead role in the evolution.

    The final probationary check-off is done by the Deputy Chief. He may decide to have the member demonstrate a skill or two, or may quiz him/her for a short time.

    In addition to the skills checkoff, the probationary member must score an 80 on a 100-question test, complete a computer based FFI training program and complete NIMS 700/800/100.

    Actually there is no law requiring that a career member have FFI. The requirement is simply in place so that you will receive your state supplemental pay.
    So what happens if something were to happen to lets say a JR was interrior over hauling and a roof comes down on them. Who goes to court? Who is responsible for that person? The chief? Or does the DC take the fall?

    Leave a comment:


  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Originally posted by SPFDRum View Post
    If that is the case, and Louisiana being an OSHA state, how do you meet and document that fact for the OSHA respiratory standards?
    To be 100% honest I don't know.

    I do know that per department policy, each member mus complete a minimum of 8 hours of SCBA training, including burn time, each year.

    Leave a comment:


  • dday05
    replied
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    LA requires no training standard for career or volunteer firefighters.

    At this time it is left up to the departments to establish minimum training standards, or no standards at all.

    That being said, a department will receive bonus credit on the rating for any member with a certification.

    According to the new Disaster Response Protocols, any firefighter, career or volunteer should have a minimum of FFI to be deployed with their agency.

    It does require career firefighters to have FFI to receive State Supplemental pay of $6K a year 1 year after the date of hire.

    LSU Fire Training requires FFI for some advanced training, particularly technical rescue training such as confined space, trench and high angle.
    I would think with all the safety and what not I would be in line for standardized training for LA across the board... Just saying

    Leave a comment:


  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Originally posted by dday05 View Post
    So does a Instructor have to check the people off or does the chief of the dept? So to be a career FF you only need FF I interesting...
    Any senior firefighter or officer can check off a probationary member on a skill, either in a one-on-one session, or after a group training session where the member has demonstrated the skill.

    The member must be able to demonstrate the skill acting alone, or if it's a multi-person skill, such as raising a ladder with 2-men, he/she must take the lead role in the evolution.

    The final probationary check-off is done by the Deputy Chief. He may decide to have the member demonstrate a skill or two, or may quiz him/her for a short time.

    In addition to the skills checkoff, the probationary member must score an 80 on a 100-question test, complete a computer based FFI training program and complete NIMS 700/800/100.

    Actually there is no law requiring that a career member have FFI. The requirement is simply in place so that you will receive your state supplemental pay.

    Leave a comment:

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