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  • #76
    Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Pure Genius.99% of Steam burns(by nozzle)are. T.C.
    HAHA, that's all I can really say to this, you nailed it man.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
      Deputy, your blanket statement about smoothbore use in commercial areas is nullified by those firefighters that successfully use them in residential occupancies on a daily basis - arguably with no difference in performance or knock-down times.
      Erm... How do you see that "nullifying" anything?

      The fact that fires eventually get put out doesn't imply that the choice of nozzle is necessarily the most prudent -- just that it was adequate.
      "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
      sigpic
      The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
        Smooth bore is to put more volume of water in the stream to attack the fire
        False. Comparable smoothbore and adjustable nozzles put comparable volumes of water into the fire.

        but the straight stream does not have the volume to output a stable flow of water while the smooth bore does
        Thats a phenominally ignorant statement. What weighs more, a pound of rocks or a pound of feathers? You can put out just as much volume with a straightstream as you can a smoothbore.

        why does it matter?
        At the very least it matters that the crew understands how nozzles work and use one or the other based on needs and condidtions and not on myths and old wives tales.
        "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
        sigpic
        The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
          Erm... How do you see that "nullifying" anything?

          The fact that fires eventually get put out doesn't imply that the choice of nozzle is necessarily the most prudent -- just that it was adequate.
          You stated that it only "made sense" to use a smoothbore on a commercial occupancy. And you must have missed the part where I said "with no difference in performance or knock-down times."...implying that a smoothbore can extinguish the same amount of fire as a fog in the same amount of time - not just that the smoothbore was adequate.
          Career Fire Captain
          Volunteer Chief Officer


          Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

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          • #80
            Originally posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
            You stated that it only "made sense" to use a smoothbore on a commercial occupancy
            And I stand by that for the reasons given.

            And you must have missed the part where I said "with no difference in performance or knock-down times
            Nope. You must have missed the part about


            "The fact that fires eventually get put out doesn't imply that the choice of nozzle is necessarily the most prudent -- just that it was adequate."

            Just because the fire went out doesn't mean it was the best choice of nozzle -- especially if, as you suggest, there was "no difference in performance or knock-down." Indeed, that assessment supports my argument: Adjustable nozzles can do everything smoothbore nozzles can do all the while providing options to do things that smoothbores can't do.
            "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
            sigpic
            The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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            • #81
              Fire guy 211 - its in post # 234 in "real men go interior "
              LIAR - thats quite a word to throw out there - in his words "I dont know much about firefighting" -trying to get into the academy
              My point fireguy (gosh I wish I had a cool name like that) is some one with limited if no experence has no business add an anecdoital tale he has heard or read without having experenced it. I will add nothing to the discussion unless I have "been there /done that"
              And to add to the discussion - I came into the structural aspect of firefighting in 1980 - the tactic taught was the overhead attack - 30degree fog - into where the flames were just breaking over - mant times I upset the thermal balance and made "soup" - I got minor 1st degree burns on occasion . Setting on the tip was not the problem - blasting the ceiling too long was the problem.
              ?

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              • #82
                And FIREguy - (is that how you prounice it ? "heavy on the fire baby " Let me tell you bout the war years down in the parish" .
                Rescue squad can mean many things in many different places - many places , have a completely seperate rescue squad from fire - some do EMS only , some do actual rescue. And some are fire based EMS - generally a fire based rescue squad will have the more experenced members on it , usually not the members that are still trying to get int rooky school.
                ?

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
                  Adjustable nozzles can do everything smoothbore nozzles can do all the while providing options to do things that smoothbores can't do.
                  I'll concede that a fog is better at hydraulic ventilation.
                  Career Fire Captain
                  Volunteer Chief Officer


                  Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
                    Adjustable nozzles can do everything smoothbore nozzles can do all the while providing options to do things that smoothbores can't do.
                    So again tell us the purported benefit gained by spending twice to three times as much for many more potential problems. I'm with Box, conceding that fog is better for hydraulic vent, AKA moving air. Short of that, as we do not rely on hydraulic ventilation as a primary vent tactics I see no valid reason to introduce more complexity and potential issues to an already dangerous assignment.

                    As for the fog nozzle issues I've seen? Many may have been maintenance, but regardless of the FD's PM program, a smoothbore would have had a far superior chance at working properly. Ever heard of ergonomics? Is not the simplest form that works, the best? Maybe we should stop hiring humans? As for my own FD's nozzle issues? Each gets removed weekly and checked for operation, gaskets checked, fog teeth inspected and spun on those with them and often rinsed through for good measure. Mostly I've seen issues at draft water supply fires, also seen paper and a straw.

                    So, as we've established and conceded to the fog nozzle being used in place of a truck company what are other benefits of a fog nozzle for residential fire attack? Must be something worth all that money for a TFT?

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
                      So again tell us the purported benefit gained by spending twice to three times as much for many more potential problems. I'm with Box, conceding that fog is better for hydraulic vent, AKA moving air. Short of that, as we do not rely on hydraulic ventilation as a primary vent tactics I see no valid reason to introduce more complexity and potential issues to an already dangerous assignment.

                      As for the fog nozzle issues I've seen? Many may have been maintenance, but regardless of the FD's PM program, a smoothbore would have had a far superior chance at working properly. Ever heard of ergonomics? Is not the simplest form that works, the best? Maybe we should stop hiring humans? As for my own FD's nozzle issues? Each gets removed weekly and checked for operation, gaskets checked, fog teeth inspected and spun on those with them and often rinsed through for good measure. Mostly I've seen issues at draft water supply fires, also seen paper and a straw.

                      So, as we've established and conceded to the fog nozzle being used in place of a truck company what are other benefits of a fog nozzle for residential fire attack? Must be something worth all that money for a TFT?
                      They work MINT for pushing burning propane. BTW,what did you do to my boy? Tried to get him to fly the Tower,couldn't get it out of the bed, Something about a FOOT switch(which OURS doesn't have). I told him he hung around you so long, you sucked all the brainwaves out of him,hehe. AND WHO buys Tft's? T.C.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
                        Which is demonstrably false.
                        I guess we will have to agree to disagree because that is not what our tests showed.

                        I will stick with the smooth bore. I don't see why it would make more sense to use smooth bore in a commercial but not a residential. Please explain your reasoning.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          I think arguing which nozzle is better is really quite stupid.

                          They both work fine when used correctly. Period.

                          Can we all just grow up a bit here? Just a bit....?
                          I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                          "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                          "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
                            They work MINT for pushing burning propane. BTW,what did you do to my boy? Tried to get him to fly the Tower,couldn't get it out of the bed, Something about a FOOT switch(which OURS doesn't have). I told him he hung around you so long, you sucked all the brainwaves out of him,hehe. AND WHO buys Tft's? T.C.
                            I agree on the propane as well, but we're talking residential fire attack. For the record, we have both, ran fogs exclusively on 1.75" until this year, due years of misapplied theories and poor training based on IFSTA and others. Of course fogs work fine, I'm just wondering what Deputy Fog and others see as the purported benefits to make such strong statements and argue so vehemently. Maybe the rest of us aren't progressive enough? I only wear Hawaiian shirts when in Hawaii (not nearly often enough!), something about Rome and Romans...

                            BTW: Your boy was just refined a bit, you can't take the mountain out of the boy, even when he leaves the mountains behind. Consider him more well rounded for his short time on the coast, I wish I'd had him on my shift. Probably had more to teach some than he learned from us, but such is the life of an experienced "probie". And I don't actually know who buys TFT's but they seem pretty flashy and their employees drop in once in a while on vacation, get a picture taken and are compensated, so someone must be filling their coffers with money? Nice folks, silly over priced products...
                            Last edited by RFDACM02; 12-21-2010, 10:35 PM.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                              I think arguing which nozzle is better is really quite stupid.

                              Can we all just grow up a bit here? Just a bit....?
                              Asking for alot ain't ya?
                              Get the first line into operation.

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                              • #90
                                It has never really been the nozzle that gets someone hurt. It is the operator failing to use the nozzle properly.

                                When I was a rookie I was taught the crawl in the room, flop on your back like a dead fish, open the combo nozzle on wide fog and whip it around towards the ceiling. Of course what happened was the upper area of the room got water staurated and all the heat, smoke and black nasty dropped down on us on the floor and burned the bejeezus out of us. The even stupider thing was we were told that it was just part of the job.

                                Well, I began to wonder why we crawled right into the hurn room and purposely set ourselves up to be burned. I began to experiment with hitting the fire with a narrow fog, and then a straight stream from the doorway. Amazingly the fire went out and I didn't get burned. Same tool, different technique and WOW! the fire still was going out.

                                Could I do the same thing with a smoothbore? Of course I could work the fire from the doorway with a smoothbore and in fact I have.

                                The major difference between using a smoothbore or straight stream versus a combo nozzle on a fog pattern is how much more you have to move the nozzle to distibute the water. The technique is commonly called up, down, and all around.

                                One last comment, my volly and career FD's both use low bressure combos and slug tips, and the stream from a low pressure combo nozzle has more in common with a smooth bore nozzle than with a 100 psi nozzle. Low pressure nozzles have a more solid straight stream with less fly away than a 100 psi combo nozzle.
                                Last edited by FyredUp; 12-22-2010, 01:15 AM.
                                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                                Millions of people living as foes
                                Maybe it's not too late
                                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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