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  • #46
    We put our thumb over the the end of the coupling.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

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    • #47
      Originally posted by SPFDRum View Post
      We put our thumb over the the end of the coupling.
      Now that's funny.
      Get the first line into operation.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
        Myths.

        Penetration/distance are essentially the same thing and the straight stream from a properly adjusted adjustable is only marginally less effective than a comparable solid stream from a smoothbore.

        As for GPM and pressure, just compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges and choose the right nozzle for the job.
        I think of penetration as power. The amount of force the water will hit something with. I have solid streams that have ripped through dry wall. Can't say that it has happened with a straight stream from a fog.

        Distance is how far the actual stream will go especially before it breaks over. A solid stream will achieve far greater distance and less affected by wind.

        Apples to apples oranges to oranges? How about pumping the same 1.75" line. One with a fog and one with a smooth bore. You will get more more gpm from a smooth bore at a lower PDP.

        I'm not making this up. It isn't hype. Go do it for yourself.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by BKDRAFT View Post
          I think of penetration as power. The amount of force the water will hit something with. I have solid streams that have ripped through dry wall. Can't say that it has happened with a straight stream from a fog.

          Okay, why would you need to do that?

          Distance is how far the actual stream will go especially before it breaks over. A solid stream will achieve far greater distance and less affected by wind.

          Not if the combo stream is a low pressure stream. The droplet size is larger and very similar to the stream from a smoothbore. The truth is a 75 psi combo nozzle flowing the same gpm as a 50 psi smoothbore will actually outreach the smoothbore with very little flyaway.

          Apples to apples oranges to oranges? How about pumping the same 1.75" line. One with a fog and one with a smooth bore. You will get more more gpm from a smooth bore at a lower PDP.

          Again, not true if you are using low pressure combo tips. Did you know low pressure combo tips can be had in 50 psi? The same pressure as a smooth bore. Same flow, same pressure, what a concept.

          I'm not making this up. It isn't hype. Go do it for yourself.

          I have, and that is how we ended up with the nozzle system we use today. The problem is it appears you only compared 100mpsi combo tips and ignored the low pressure nozzles that totally have changed the landscape.
          Perhaps you need to borrow some low pressure combo tips and run some ests for yourself. I bet your eyes will be opened.
          Crazy, but that's how it goes
          Millions of people living as foes
          Maybe it's not too late
          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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          • #50
            Originally posted by BKDRAFT View Post
            Can't say that it has happened with a straight stream from a fog.
            Then you haven't tried it with comparable flows.

            Distance is how far the actual stream will go especially before it breaks over. A solid stream will achieve far greater distance and less affected by wind.
            Greater, but not significantly greater. More to the point, aside from a surround and drown operation, when was the last time you used a smoothbore or straight stream so far from your objective that breakover distance was a significant factor? On an interior attack?

            Apples to apples oranges to oranges? How about pumping the same 1.75" line. One with a fog and one with a smooth bore. You will get more more gpm from a smooth bore at a lower PDP.
            Not with comparable nozzles. I can go downstairs to the engine right now and pump two nozzles on equal lengths of 1 3/4" line, one smoothbore and one combination on straight stream, wyed off of the same pump outlet and get roughly 185 gpm @ 50 psi off of each nozzle. The smoothbore will produce a calculated nozzle reaction of ~69 lbs while the fog nozzle will produce a calculated nozzle reaction of ~66 lbs. That small sacrifice in stream force is a small price to pay for versatility in my book.

            I'm not making this up. It isn't hype. Go do it for yourself.
            Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.
            "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
            sigpic
            The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
              Then you haven't tried it with comparable flows.



              Greater, but not significantly greater. More to the point, aside from a surround and drown operation, when was the last time you used a smoothbore or straight stream so far from your objective that breakover distance was a significant factor? On an interior attack?



              Not with comparable nozzles. I can go downstairs to the engine right now and pump two nozzles on equal lengths of 1 3/4" line, one smoothbore and one combination on straight stream, wyed off of the same pump outlet and get roughly 185 gpm @ 50 psi off of each nozzle. The smoothbore will produce a calculated nozzle reaction of ~69 lbs while the fog nozzle will produce a calculated nozzle reaction of ~66 lbs. That small sacrifice in stream force is a small price to pay for versatility in my book.



              Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.
              We have done it with comparable flows. We have combo nozzles that when the tip is removed you have a smoothbore. You pump the fog the same as the smooth bore. They are both low pressure. The fog doesn't have the penetration.

              Your correct the break over typically is not a factor. However, it does prove the solid bore has more reach and less vulnerable to wind.

              Your correct at the same pressure you will get slightly more nozzle reaction with the smooth bore. Not much any nozzleman would probably notice. However the GPM is about 25 GPM greater than that of the fog at the same PDP. On our tests we got 170 from the fog and 195 from a 15/16 SB.

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              • #52
                I perfer a smooth bore. Why you ask? Because a fog nozzle doesn't work well with a CAFS engine :P. As far as pistol grips go I like them because they give you something to hold onto when pulling a line, some times they are useful for a fire attack.

                Bottom line know what you have and know how to get the most out of it.

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                • #53
                  Correct answer (IMO) is both. Smoothbore and fog.

                  Akron Assault break-apart nozzles. 75/175 fog with a 15/16" smoothbore.
                  "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by BKDRAFT View Post
                    I think of penetration as power. The amount of force the water will hit something with. I have solid streams that have ripped through dry wall. Can't say that it has happened with a straight stream from a fog.

                    Distance is how far the actual stream will go especially before it breaks over. A solid stream will achieve far greater distance and less affected by wind.

                    Apples to apples oranges to oranges? How about pumping the same 1.75" line. One with a fog and one with a smooth bore. You will get more more gpm from a smooth bore at a lower PDP.

                    I'm not making this up. It isn't hype. Go do it for yourself.
                    Not for Nuttin but how much WIND do you find in the AVERAGE Fire building? If you're defensive it might be a factor. And I really could care less.I'll use whatever is handed to me. Such is the nature of our RURAL area. T.C.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by BKDRAFT View Post
                      However the GPM is about 25 GPM greater than that of the fog at the same PDP. On our tests we got 170 from the fog and 195 from a 15/16 SB.
                      Is this testing with both the smooth bore slug tip and the combi nozzle attached to it? Elkhart publishes that there is a reduction of flow on a Chief nozzle when you have a slug tip or integrated smooth bore. Try it again with just the combi tip on a regular shut-off, I bet your gpm will be about the same. Of course this is assuming you are using a fog nozzle that is rated very closely to your SB. Such as a [email protected] nozzle. But you are probably using a 175gpm nozzle, so of course it is going to flow less.

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                      • #56
                        Smoothbore for commercial fires.
                        Fog only if you want to get steamed.
                        Combination for ordinary fires.
                        Piercing nozzles for hidden fires.
                        And of course, the truck washing nozzle for initiations , washing the trucks.
                        Make sure they are painted to the colors I posted so you can know which one works better, NOW THAT'S AN IDEA!
                        VB Rescue Squad 14
                        EMT-Basic

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Dr.Rescue.EMT View Post
                          Smoothbore for commercial fires.
                          Fog only if you want to get steamed.
                          Combination for ordinary fires.
                          Piercing nozzles for hidden fires.
                          And of course, the truck washing nozzle for initiations , washing the trucks.
                          Make sure they are painted to the colors I posted so you can know which one works better, NOW THAT'S AN IDEA!
                          How many times have you been steamed by a fog nozzle?
                          Career Fire Captain
                          Volunteer Chief Officer


                          Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by blaster668 View Post
                            Is this testing with both the smooth bore slug tip and the combi nozzle attached to it? Elkhart publishes that there is a reduction of flow on a Chief nozzle when you have a slug tip or integrated smooth bore. Try it again with just the combi tip on a regular shut-off, I bet your gpm will be about the same. Of course this is assuming you are using a fog nozzle that is rated very closely to your SB. Such as a [email protected] nozzle. But you are probably using a 175gpm nozzle, so of course it is going to flow less.
                            Yes it had the slug. The nozzles we use are detachable so that we can choose between SB or fog. My argument from my first post has been the smooth bore flows more gpm at the same PDP.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
                              Not for Nuttin but how much WIND do you find in the AVERAGE Fire building? If you're defensive it might be a factor. And I really could care less.I'll use whatever is handed to me. Such is the nature of our RURAL area. T.C.
                              Why ask rhetorical questions?

                              We have established their isn't much wind any fire buildings. Thanks.

                              If you could care less then don't worry about this thread and move on. Let people who do care discuss the positives and negatives.

                              Have fun fighting all that fire in your rural area.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Dr.Rescue.EMT View Post
                                Smoothbore for commercial fires.
                                Fog only if you want to get steamed.
                                Combination for ordinary fires.
                                Piercing nozzles for hidden fires.
                                And of course, the truck washing nozzle for initiations , washing the trucks.
                                Make sure they are painted to the colors I posted so you can know which one works better, NOW THAT'S AN IDEA!
                                Why pick a smooth bore for only commercial fires?

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