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  • #46
    Originally posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Although this doesn't suprise me coming from you, this seems to be a common problem spreading through out the fire service - lack of truck work.

    1. With todays modern aerials, I would challenge nearly any group of two guys throwing portable ladders against one putting the aerial to the same location. They are just to fast and easy to set up now. Work smarter, not harder.

    2. Regardless of whether the truck will use the aerial or not, pumpers need to park out of the way and let the truck park as close to in front of the house as possible:

    A. This allows the best possible position IF the truck does need to be raised for anything - see #1 above.

    B. Spotting a 100' truck leaves a marhin of error of 50' or less. Our pumpers have a 1816' margin of error. You can always pull another section of hose - you can NEVER stretch the aerial. It will reach or it won't.

    C. Alot of truck tools are heavy - portable ladders, PPV fans, etc.

    D. In departments that use both, normally all the support stuff is on the truck - generator, portable lights, salvage tubs, etc.


    A good engine driver will pull past the house on fire and park in front of the one next door.
    What he said ^^^

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    • #47
      Originally posted by MemphisE34a View Post
      A good engine driver will pull past the house on fire and park in front of the one next door.
      A good department will make this SOP!
      Just a typical moronic, childish, idiotic munchkin.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by rpferry View Post
        Dang it! I hate it when I put the horse before the carriage. My bad, this kid is a bit of a Le****** Bag. T.C., thanks for pointing it out.I had read his other posts before but had forgot who he was. French fire helmets and what not.
        -Rob
        Quite alright! Happy Turkey day to ya Brother. Just didn't want that lil snippet to pass you by. He and LA will have a LOT to talk about. It appears he does not care for us gruff old line BULLS. T.C.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
          We have plenty of ladders on scene between the engines and tanker. Of course, it's extremly rare that we respond to anything but a one-story, so there is a minimum need for ladders even if we vent the roof.

          Even in my last department up north, where we had plenty of 2-story homes it was rare that we would take the ladders off the aerial. Generally we would use 1 or 2 ladders off the closest engine(s) and that would suffice to do the job.
          It's even RARER when you THROW a ladder. But that's OK,PROPER TRUCK WORK, it's a forgotten art. T.C.
          Last edited by Rescue101; 11-25-2010, 10:27 AM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
            It's even RARER when you THROW a ladder. But that's OK,PROPER TRUCK WORK, it's a forgotten art. T.C.


            You are correct sir. it is very rare that my current or volunteer department throws a ladder.

            Fact is 98% of our housing stock is single-level. Up until recently, land in my fire district was cheap and almost everybody built long and/or wide rather than pay for a second story. A couple of the newer developments built in the last few years as the price of land has increased have some two-story homes, but even within those developments, they still are the exceptions to the rule.

            Land is still cheap in the area covered by my volunteer gig. Two-story homes there are almost non-existent.

            Fact is, given that the majority of our ventilation is PPV, there are little opportunities to throw ladders at incidents due to building construction. We still do truck work - It simply rarely involves ladders.
            Train to fight the fires you fight.

            Comment


            • #51
              Although this doesn't suprise me coming from you, this seems to be a common problem spreading through out the fire service - lack of truck work.

              Truck work has nothing to do with having a "truck". Engines can, the vast majority of the time accomplish truck company task in a rural or suburban setting if equipped with the proper tools. The same can be said of rescue or service apparatus utilizing the ladders of engines or tankers.

              In a rural setting, the aerial itself is usually a non-factor. Good truck work can easily be accomplished without a truck company placed in front of the structure. In fact, it can be accomplished without a "truck".

              My current department accomplishes truck work utilizing tools and equipment carried on the rescue, which is usually placed short or beyond the incident to allow for tanker operations, which are far more critical.


              1. With todays modern aerials, I would challenge nearly any group of two guys throwing portable ladders against one putting the aerial to the same location. They are just to fast and easy to set up now. Work smarter, not harder.

              Most of the residential properties on the three departments I have volunteered with who operated aerials posed issues for the aerial such as setbacks from the paved road, trees, power lines and other obstructions that made it very difficult or impossible to utilize the aerial. Many of the chimneys, which would have been the most common use of the aerial, were located on the back of the homes.

              In the rural areas, soft dirt roads which led to many of the homes posed a problem given the weight. Fact is in most cases, using ground ladders on residential fires was the only, and by far, most common access to the roof or chimney.

              In all 3 cases where I volunteered with departments that operated aerials, they were purchased and operated primarily for commercial, college, large apartment and resort occupancies with open access. These departments had a large number of calls (alarms/investigations) but very few fires in these buildings. They were not purchased primarily for residential response, which represented 95% of our fires, but the aerial was used when possible.


              2. Regardless of whether the truck will use the aerial or not, pumpers need to park out of the way and let the truck park as close to in front of the house as possible:

              See #1. On commercial and multi-story apartment/college dormitory properties they were staged until the location of the fire was determined, along with all apparatus with the exception of the first due engine who went to the main entrance to do the alarm investigation ans second due engine, who went to the sprinkler/standpipe connection. If it was determined the truck was needed for rescue, fire attack or ventilation, it was positioned before the other engines in staging.

              On residential properties the first in officer or senior firefighter evaluated if the aerial device could be used and the truck companies placement was determined based on that evaluation. Basically there was no point in tying up space in front of the structure if the device couldn't be used.


              A. This allows the best possible position IF the truck does need to be raised for anything - see #1 above.

              B. Spotting a 100' truck leaves a margin of error of 50' or less. Our pumpers have a 1816' margin of error. You can always pull another section of hose - you can NEVER stretch the aerial. It will reach or it won't.

              Agreed, which is why the initial evaluation by the first in officer or first in engine was so critical.

              C. Alot of truck tools are heavy - portable ladders, PPV fans, etc.

              PPV fans, box fans, overhaul tools, saws and ladders were also carried on our engines so that they could operate as a truck if the truck didn't respond, or we had multiple incidents. We wanted any company responding to be able to handle ventilation or forcible entry.

              D. In departments that use both, normally all the support stuff is on the truck - generator, portable lights, salvage tubs, etc.

              Again, the engines were set up with the same size generator as the truck, and they all had two or four telescoping lights. The 2nd due engine also carried multiple tarps for chimney fire operations.


              A good engine driver will pull past the house on fire and park in front of the one next door.

              Truck was generally at best 3rd apparatus to arrive, and sometimes as late as the 4th or 5th depending on the proximity of the call to the station with the aerial v. engine-only stations. If the first-in officer felt the stick could be used, engines were staged until it arrived and was positioned. If obstructions, wires and setbacks made it's use unlikely, engines were positioned in front of the building and the truck was staged, or often canceled to limited residential fires such as kitchen, cooking or chimney unless the manpower was required.

              Again, most of the truck tools carried on the truck were also carried on our engines.

              Not saying trucks are not important, especially in an urban or built-up suburban environment. My only point is that depending on department setup and call type, the placement of the truck in front of the structure may not be especially critical, especially if the aerial itself can usually not be utilzed.
              Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-25-2010, 08:38 PM.
              Train to fight the fires you fight.

              Comment


              • #52
                "GOOD" Truck work in Todays world is RARE and getting rarer. Yes, there are pockets of places doing EXCELLENT truck work. But they are getting fewer and fewer. We use an agressive Truck stance here and it has paid off more than once. Get it open,get it OUT. T.C.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
                  "GOOD" Truck work in Todays world is RARE and getting rarer. Yes, there are pockets of places doing EXCELLENT truck work. But they are getting fewer and fewer. We use an agressive Truck stance here and it has paid off more than once. Get it open,get it OUT. T.C.
                  Agreed.

                  I never said that wasn't true, however there is building construction and occupancies that require more truck work to make that happen and there is building construction and occupancies that require less.

                  In both my career and volunteer situations, we rarely need to perform significant truck work due to call type, building construction and occupancy.

                  If we do, it's assigned to members in staging, not to a particular piece of apparatus.
                  Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-25-2010, 08:41 PM.
                  Train to fight the fires you fight.

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                  • #54
                    A motion is in order for this quote to be in nomination for the Freakin' Oxymoron Of The Year (aka the FOOTY award)...
                    We still do truck work - It simply rarely involves ladders.
                    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
                      I would go out on a limb here and suggest that Urban or Rural in this day and age it would be an EXTREMELY rare event that a perspective firefighter would NOT know about the existance of a Ladder/aerial truck unless that someone NEVER picked up an FD periodical or has looked at a computer screen. PARTICULARLY this individual(JJr512). Try reading a couple of his other posts to get a feel for my suspicions. T.C.
                      *sigh*

                      There comes a time in every person's life when that person learns something they never knew before. I suppose you learned everything there was to know about firefighting, THEN decided to be a firefighter. If that's not true, then you yourself must be one of those "extremely rare" exceptions you mentioned. Me, on the other hand, only just recently decided to start learning more about firefighting. And I started with zero background. Nobody in my family (that I know of) was ever a firefighter. I'm starting at the beginning here. I've already explained this. I don't know why you can't understand it.

                      It's not that I didn't know about the "existence of a Ladder/aerial truck". I knew they existed. I just thought the two terms that I was asking about (aerial tower, aerial ladder) referred to the same thing. In other words, I thought they were two different terms for the same thing.

                      I've been going to my fire station usually two nights a week (I'm in class two other nights, and family affairs take up the other nights), usually around 16 hours a week or so. I started doing this in mid-september of THIS YEAR. That's maybe what, ten weeks ago? For ****'s sake, ten weeks in (and not even any FF classes!) and I'm supposed to know everything already?

                      It has been ONLY since then that I've been looking at FF magazines and looking at FF stuff on the internet. Check my registration date to see how long I've been on the internet reading about firefighting.

                      And Rescue101 you can't seem to decide if I should know everything or know nothing. You like to point out the fact that I have no training or experience but yet you expect me to know everything anyway.

                      Originally posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
                      I'm teaching 29 students tonight, most of which have less than one years experience in a rural setting (closest ladder truck is 20+ minutes away from a nearby jurisdiction). Just for S&G's, I'm going to ask them to tell me everything they know about ladder trucks, and see what kind of responses I get.
                      Just out of curiosity, what kind of responses did you get?

                      I do somewhat agree with this, especially since his station has a 100' rear-mount aerial sitting in the bay.
                      We have what I now know is an "aerial ladder". Of course I knew we had an aerial apparatus. I've even ridden on it several times (as an observer). To be honest, I have no idea how tall it is; I never thought to ask. But as I just explained to Rescue101, I didn't know (until this thread) that there was a difference between "aerial tower" and "aerial ladder". As I've just explained, I thought they were interchangeable terms. Everybody just refers to ours as the "truck" or "Truck 6", since it's the only truck our station has.

                      Originally posted by MemphisE34a View Post
                      I still think it's crazy that someone os using their knowledge of the TV show "Emergency" to legitimize any honest discussion about the fire service.
                      Once again...I wasn't using my "knowledge" of any TV show to "legitimize" anything. Once again, you need to go re-re-read my original mention of that show, and hopefully this time the reading comprehension portion of your brain will finally slip out of neutral.

                      Originally posted by Jonnee View Post
                      Fact - JJR is NOT a firefighter, nor a member of a fire department. He wants to be one.
                      The underlined facts are not in dispute. These facts have been made quite public by myself many times, including previously in this very thread. You're not making any revelation here.

                      The one non-underlined statement—"nor a member of a fire department"—is wrong. Well...to split the finest of hairs, you are correct that I am not a member of any fire department. I'm a member of a volunteer fire company. I don't think that was your point, though. I think you were trying to say that I'm just some guy sitting at home (probably in my mother's basement, right?) on the internet trolling around all day long, and that I have absolutely no connection whatsoever to any public service or emergency service organization at all, period, correct? That is wrong. It's true that I'm not a firefighter now, but I am a member of a VFC. I am signed up for Firefighter I through MFRI.

                      And I don't "dream up" things to ask. I was inspired to ask this question based on an article I read in a recent FF magazine. I'm sorry I don't remember the title of the magazine off the top of my head, but I do remember the article started on page 26...It was about some new apparatus the county had recently taken delivery of, from Pierce. Next time I go to the station (probably next Tuesday) maybe I'll scan a page of it and post it.
                      -Justin J. "JJR512" Rebbert

                      The comments and opinions I express are solely my own and do not necessarily represent those of any employer or volunteer organization with which I am associated. Nobody is responsible for anything I say other than I alone.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        The one non-underlined statement—"nor a member of a fire department"—is wrong. Well...to split the finest of hairs, you are correct that I am not a member of any fire department. I'm a member of a volunteer fire company.
                        You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to....


                        I don't think that was your point, though. I think you were trying to say that I'm just some guy sitting at home (probably in my mother's basement, right?) on the internet trolling around all day long, and that I have absolutely no connection whatsoever to any public service or emergency service organization at all, period, correct? That is wrong. It's true that I'm not a firefighter now, but I am a member of a VFC. I am signed up for Firefighter I through MFRI.
                        While it is "almost impossible" to determine the tone and attitude of someone posting on an internet forum, many of us have been around for long enough to recognize the fact that you come across as arrogant.

                        And I don't "dream up" things to ask. I was inspired to ask this question based on an article I read in a recent FF magazine. I'm sorry I don't remember the title of the magazine off the top of my head, but I do remember the article started on page 26...It was about some new apparatus the county had recently taken delivery of, from Pierce. Next time I go to the station (probably next Tuesday) maybe I'll scan a page of it and post it.
                        No need to post that.. it's a waste of electrons and bandwidth, unless you are the whacker type into "fire truck porn"...
                        ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                        Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          LA,

                          Granted you can put many truck tools on engines or other apparatus. Maybe you missed the small burb in my post above that stated:

                          In departments that use both, normally all the support stuff is on the truck
                          Regardless of where the stuff is riding, it doesn't mean it's getting used. In your instance it is most likely getting used even less. It's hard to vent by any means and lay lines at the same time.
                          RK
                          cell #901-494-9437

                          Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

                          "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


                          Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
                            You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to....
                            I'm not the one saying anything. Jonnee is the one who wants to tell everyone what the facts are, when in fact he is just stating what he personally believes to be true.

                            While it is "almost impossible" to determine the tone and attitude of someone posting on an internet forum, many of us have been around for long enough to recognize the fact that you come across as arrogant.
                            You are exactly correct. I have both mistaken the tone and attitude of others, and had my tone and attitude mistaken many, many times.

                            An arrogant person is one who thinks and acts like he is more important than he is, and like he has more dignity, authority, or knowledge than he has, and is also presumptive, conceited, or haughty.

                            I have freely explained many times that I am a complete newbie. One thing I said earlier in this thread was that after I finish the basic firefighting class, then I will finally qualify to be called an "FNG". That means at this point, I don't even consider myself to be at that level; I'm beneath the level of an FNG. Does this sound like the attitude of an arrogant person? I have said that I know next to nothing about the world of firefighting. Is this what an arrogant person says?

                            No need to post that.. it's a waste of electrons and bandwidth, unless you are the whacker type into "fire truck porn"...
                            I would have only posted it to prove a point to Jonnee, that I'm not sitting around dreaming up questions to bug you guys with. In fact, it just occurred to me that if you want to talk about arrogance, why don't you look at that guy? He's the one who thinks he's so important and I have nothing better to do than sit around trying to find ways to annoy him. That's a load of conceit if I ever saw one.

                            But "fire truck porn"...LOL...I'll have to remember that term.
                            -Justin J. "JJR512" Rebbert

                            The comments and opinions I express are solely my own and do not necessarily represent those of any employer or volunteer organization with which I am associated. Nobody is responsible for anything I say other than I alone.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
                              unless you are...into "fire truck porn"...
                              Hey Chief, I resemble that remark.
                              Career Fire Captain
                              Volunteer Chief Officer


                              Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by CGITCH View Post
                                One of our tankers carries a 35' and a roof ladder. Our other primary one does not, although our new one with delivery anytime will. I don't know why, but our department runs way short on ladders, especially at a rural fire. Pumper has one 35' tanker has one 35' and that is it for extension ladders. Our reserve pumper has another 35' but that rarely responds to a rural incident.I would like to see a change in that, but I doubt it will happen.
                                Its good you guys have the reach of the 35' and in my experience with rural areas it seems they do gravitate to having 35's on the pumpers if it'll fit for that reason. But these are also the areas that has the biggest problem with being short on manpower (and often using their "first string" for interior ops), we all know how heavy a 35 is. A quad with 24's and 28's, along with straight ladders would allow 1 man to throw ladders quicker and safer.


                                on a side note and off topic, proper truck work is dieing, I think engine work is too. How many dept.s could estimate a stretch and not just clear the bed of a preconnect? How many pump operaters could properly pump a broken preconnect? Do they just know preconnect 1 gets XXX psi, or do they know the friction loss per 100ft. Are we really getting back to basics?

                                Comment

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