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Not your typical eye protection topic...need feedback

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  • Not your typical eye protection topic...need feedback

    Bros,

    I'm working on a project concerning eye protection and need input. Not doing this to debate Bourkes, versus Goggles, versus faceshields.

    First, who out there has an eye protection policy they'd be willing to share? Please PM me if you do.

    Next, the Cairns 1010 which is sold with Bourkes AND goggles; I know the goggles are ESS, but are they the "Innerzone" model? And if they are, which Innerzone are they (1,2,3)?

    Thanks and stay safe!

  • #2
    Bump........

    Comment


    • #3
      While we don't have it yet, last weeks inspection by our insurer's compliance officer, is leading us to attach a PPE selection matrix to every SOP/SOG. Basically a one page synopsis of the appropriate level of protection for head, eyes, torso, legs, feet, hands and respiratory tract. We argued for a blanket style policy to no avail. It seems foolish that as much as we comply, they ask for more each year, while neighboring FD's fail to remotely live up to basic compliance but seem to remain covered. Maybe we just follow the "rules" too well?

      Needless to say, this will basically become our Eye Protection Policy as every SOG/SOP will indicate the level required.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
        While we don't have it yet, last weeks inspection by our insurer's compliance officer, is leading us to attach a PPE selection matrix to every SOP/SOG. Basically a one page synopsis of the appropriate level of protection for head, eyes, torso, legs, feet, hands and respiratory tract. We argued for a blanket style policy to no avail. It seems foolish that as much as we comply, they ask for more each year, while neighboring FD's fail to remotely live up to basic compliance but seem to remain covered. Maybe we just follow the "rules" too well?

        Needless to say, this will basically become our Eye Protection Policy as every SOG/SOP will indicate the level required.
        Hey RFD, so for fire-ground operations, do you have any idea what you guys will be recommending?

        I just got off the phone with NC-OSHA and the guy referred me to the ANSI-Z87.1 standard. So that's sort of good for us. I'm working on finding us justification to be able to leave our Bourke's on our lids, as long as they're supplemented with ANSI Z87 safety glasses (impact rated) or a goggle system.

        Have you heard this; the only reason why Bourke's don't meet NFPA is due to the temperature at which they're tested? A faceshield, which isn't good for primary protection per ANSI, still meets NFPA due to the temperature rating.

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        • #5
          Here is an SOP that is short, sweet and to the point:

          http://www.horrycountyfirerescue.com...%20Eyewear.pdf
          I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

          One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
          "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
          -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by RFDGloWorm View Post
            Have you heard this; the only reason why Bourke's don't meet NFPA is due to the temperature at which they're tested? A faceshield, which isn't good for primary protection per ANSI, still meets NFPA due to the temperature rating.
            I hadn't heard about the heat resistance test as an issue. In fact, we were cited by our DOL for having Bourke's many years ago as they stated that they failed to meet "Face Protection " requirements as a typical faceshield did. But in citing us they found that none of the typical faceshields came low enough to meet the standard cited. In the end we asked that they show us how we could comply, and they decided to rescind the citation instead. Since then we've kept the Bourkes stating that if face protection is needed we'll wear an SCBA mask. The only sticking point was on extrication where they stated we needed to wear the masks and then asked how we'd cover the MMR hole to protect our teeth! Talk about looking for ways to screw with people. In practice though, all personnel who have Bourke's carry and use ANSI approved eye protection rather than the Bourke's, 95% of the time.

            As for the fireground, I cannot see us requiring anything for face/eye protection unless performing specific task such as using saws, given that in the real world keeping the faceshield down or wearing safety glasses at all times is not realistic. We normally don't look for things to comply with, but City hall forces us to address those issues we're cited on or meet the recommendations of our insurer.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by IronsMan53 View Post
              Here is an SOP that is short, sweet and to the point:

              http://www.horrycountyfirerescue.com...%20Eyewear.pdf
              Very good, thanks Irons!!

              - Your Bro to the North

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
                I hadn't heard about the heat resistance test as an issue. In fact, we were cited by our DOL for having Bourke's many years ago as they stated that they failed to meet "Face Protection " requirements as a typical faceshield did. But in citing us they found that none of the typical faceshields came low enough to meet the standard cited. In the end we asked that they show us how we could comply, and they decided to rescind the citation instead. Since then we've kept the Bourkes stating that if face protection is needed we'll wear an SCBA mask. The only sticking point was on extrication where they stated we needed to wear the masks and then asked how we'd cover the MMR hole to protect our teeth! Talk about looking for ways to screw with people. In practice though, all personnel who have Bourke's carry and use ANSI approved eye protection rather than the Bourke's, 95% of the time.

                As for the fireground, I cannot see us requiring anything for face/eye protection unless performing specific task such as using saws, given that in the real world keeping the faceshield down or wearing safety glasses at all times is not realistic. We normally don't look for things to comply with, but City hall forces us to address those issues we're cited on or meet the recommendations of our insurer.
                Thanks for the insight. What did you guys decide to do about extrications? Stick with the safety glasses?

                Yeah, what I was saying about the faceshield stuff; was that the only reason why a faceshield makes a Cairns 1010 helmet "compliant" versus Bourkes is the temp at which they're tested....didn't know if you heard the same thing or not. This is why Morning Pride now sells a helmet with Bourkes/ EZ flips that meets NFPA standards, because they withstand the same amout of heat that faceshields do.
                Last edited by RFDGloWorm; 11-05-2010, 07:23 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by RFDGloWorm View Post
                  ...Next, the Cairns 1010 which is sold with Bourkes AND goggles; I know the goggles are ESS, but are they the "Innerzone" model? And if they are, which Innerzone are they (1,2,3)?
                  Yes, they are Innerzone. Cairns also has its own pair of goggles, but I've never seen them offered as an option on anyplace that I've ever looked to buy a Cairns helmet. As for the ESS goggles, they are Innerzone, and they offer all three styles, plus another just called the "ESS goggle system" which is similar to the Innerzone 3 in that it has a wrap-around strap, but it attaches to the D-ring, I believe.

                  Not all vendors may offer all the different options, though. When I ordered my 1000 from thefirestore.com (actually ordered it in person in their store, but I'm familiar with the options offered on the website as well), for example, no options (as for if it's Innerzone 1, 2, or 3) were offered at all; it came with Innerzone 2.

                  See here for more info: http://www.msanorthamerica.com/catalog/catalog572.html
                  -Justin J. "JJR512" Rebbert

                  The comments and opinions I express are solely my own and do not necessarily represent those of any employer or volunteer organization with which I am associated. Nobody is responsible for anything I say other than I alone.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JJR512 View Post
                    Yes, they are Innerzone. Cairns also has its own pair of goggles, but I've never seen them offered as an option on anyplace that I've ever looked to buy a Cairns helmet. As for the ESS goggles, they are Innerzone, and they offer all three styles, plus another just called the "ESS goggle system" which is similar to the Innerzone 3 in that it has a wrap-around strap, but it attaches to the D-ring, I believe.

                    Not all vendors may offer all the different options, though. When I ordered my 1000 from thefirestore.com (actually ordered it in person in their store, but I'm familiar with the options offered on the website as well), for example, no options (as for if it's Innerzone 1, 2, or 3) were offered at all; it came with Innerzone 2.

                    See here for more info: http://www.msanorthamerica.com/catalog/catalog572.html
                    Thanks for the info, I called them today and found out they are Innerzone 2's on the 1010 with Bourkes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RFDGloWorm View Post
                      Very good, thanks Irons!!

                      - Your Bro to the North
                      No prob bro. BTW, most of our guys have Bourkes on their lids but they're mostly decoration. We use safety glasses for extrications, medical calls and whenever we're not on air.
                      I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

                      One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
                      "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
                      -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by IronsMan53 View Post
                        No prob bro. BTW, most of our guys have Bourkes on their lids but they're mostly decoration. We use safety glasses for extrications, medical calls and whenever we're not on air.
                        Yeah, I know the Bourke's are for decoration. I've used them during overhaul, but not "officially", hahahaha. For extrication it's safety glasses.

                        The whole reason behind this is because "we" ruined our luxury of buying and wearing our own stuff (lids, hoods). So now it's department issue gear only, which is the 1010. Plenty of members have installed Bourke's on them. So now, I'm covering all bases, pretty much trying to show that the 4" faceshield is on the same level as the Bourke's, so we can hopefully keep them. I swear, we're our own worst enemy (never knew what that meant as a rook, but now I see it more and more after 13 years). A call to NC-OSHA revealed that they will look to ANSI as it is more in depth. The ball is rollin', hopefully the Command Staff will agree that as long as you use safety glasses/goggles compliant with ANSI Z87.1 that you can install Bourke's if you want.

                        My parents live down in "the Grove", so keep 'em safe will ya'?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          We have Bourkes but they are pretty much for decoration. They get all banged up under normal use and when you need them, they are usually badly scratched and burned. Protection wise, aisde from pulling cielings where the debris is coming from above, they offer little protection seeing as they are so far from your eyes.

                          Full shields are the same problem. They get mabgled under use and become so badly scratched they are not used. And again, to far from your eyes. They are great for keeping large pieces of debris off your face and eyes from above, but anything below your face is a hazard.

                          Goggles offer great protection, but unless you keep them in a sleeve on your helmet, they too get filthy and scratched. And i have found dirt gets behind the lenses while they ride on your helmet and then when you go to put them on, dirt can end up in your eyes from the inside. Tey can also fog, which is a pain.

                          I keep saftey glasses in my radio pocket on my coat (which never gets used for my radio). They stay clean and scratch free and when they do get scratched, i throw them away and get a new pair. Cheap and it works.

                          The other alternative which i happen to think is great is the Cairns 1010 Defender interal shield system. I bought one and the first week i had it used it during an major overhaul and it was perfect. It never fogged and kept my eyes totally protected. And best of all, when not in use it stores completley protected INSIDE the helmet shell. You cannot forget to bring them with you, it cannot get burned and it cannot get damaged. However, i ended up selling the helmet since the suspension was digging into my head and another FF liked it so much he offered me what i paid for it despite the fact it was used. Oh well. Back to my leather and useless bourkes and glasses.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            have you checked out the new system from cairns its called the defender it comes out of the inside of the helmet fighter jet helmet style its on the 1010 and 1044 models i bout them for my dads 1010 and he loves it his whole department is starting to give them to the officers check em out

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dustinney View Post
                              have you checked out the new system from cairns its called the defender it comes out of the inside of the helmet fighter jet helmet style its on the 1010 and 1044 models i bout them for my dads 1010 and he loves it his whole department is starting to give them to the officers check em out
                              Seen it, never worn it. Don't know if the system passes/classifies as "primary eye protection" per ANSI. Cool concept though.

                              I saw reviews of some people having concerns with the Defender system being down, then the front of the lid getting knocked forward so that it hurts the bridge of your nose. Not sure if anyone has experienced this....

                              Comment

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