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Strip Mall Fires....

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  • mikeyboy
    replied
    Fascias... There's another concern.

    Don't ladder them, be cautios if you have hose/Crews under them, open them up to check for extension if fire is in the front of the store, they hide what the roof looks like, many times they can have clay tiles/plywood/signs on top of 2 x 4s trusses that are gang plated and no fire blocks/seperations.

    There is another concern... And the associated reasons. Check within your 1st Due and look at the various Strip Malls. Since you are a Student, when you have some free time drive around and take some pictures of all the sides of your local Strip Malls and sit down with the Crews that are 1st Due to them; pick their brains.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rescue101
    replied
    I understand your frustration. That is EXACTLY WHY we set the Quint up as we did for JUST this type of scenerio. There is enough tools on this Rig to do all these tasks and more. We have a Sizable day crew and it is a RARE event we can't fully staff the primary rigs. Oh,it happens but it is NOT common. T.C.

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  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    101 ..

    If you have a system where there is enough response on each peice to have them dedicated to a task, that's great, and in a VFD, that's a nice situation to have.

    Most VFDs don't have that luxury and will roll pieces with less than the optimum number simply because they have to, and assignments have to be made on the fireground as staffing permits as compared to dedicated companies/crews with pre-assigned tasks.

    In our situation though, given the strip mall scenerio, I can see the handline being assigned the task of pulling the ceiling tiles as they go to check for heat/fire in the overhead space during the intial fire attack and exposure operations phase.

    Now, once we reach the overhaul stage, we do rotate fresh crews from staging to pull celings and walls to augment the handline crews, if manpower permits. Often it it's a significant fire, we will have mutual aid on hand by that time to assist us with that task.

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  • Rescue101
    replied
    Again,it's area dependent. OUR Ladder goes with a minimum of four but is augmented(as is the Engine)with members arriving on other transportation be it apparatus or POV.While I don't totally disagree with your synopsis,here Truckies do TRUCK work and Engine guys drag hoses. And the Dept has enough folks that like to do both or they work in a single arena by their preference. On the Admin side,we don't care as long as the requested task gets done and there is enough people to complete the mission. Oh,they are assigned a specfic function but with a roster of 65,you know who likes to do what.And just cause it works for us doesn't mean it will work for you. But we DO keep the two jobs separate, and OUR Engine guys don't pull ceilings. They don't HAVE to,the guys working the Truck will GLADLY do that for them. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 11-22-2010, 10:03 AM.

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  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Hmmn,Interesting. Nah, can't be. Our TRUCK (Quint)carries enough equipment that we can WORK four "truck"companies and TWO Engine companies off one rig. Last time I checked, we fit into the "volunteer" checkbox. Now the membership are cross trained but when they're on the TRUCK,the first crew off does TRUCK work. Other companies arriving MAY be assigned an Engine co function. And our system works for us, based on our response numbers . T.C.
    Wasn't referring to equipment, but was referring to manpower responding.

    Honestly, for a single family residental fire, an engine has the tools to perform a roof ventilation 95% of the time, even if it doesn't carry a chainsaw. In fact, one of my past departments took the hard suction off an engine, added an extra set of ladders in it's place and carried 2 K-12's and 2 chainsaws, as well as additional hand tools, and performed as the primary "truck company" for my department plus 2 other auto-aid districts. It could still function as an engine, either attack or supply, if needed.

    In my current department we don't run a truck, but the heavy rescue carries all the saws, fans and hand tools (less the ladders) needed to perform truck work. We do not assign the crew to that task. When they arrive they simply become part of the manpower pool and may be assigned, either as a group or person-by-person to whatever tasks are needed at that point. In many cases, the engine crew (if it rolls with 5) will be assinged to set up the PPV fan while 2 memebers flake out the initial attack line. They are also expected to bring in at least 1 3-5' pike pole with them (if a 3-man entry crew) to open ceilings as they go and check for extension. It's the 2nd lines primary job to open ceilings for extension.

    My point was in a volunteer response, where you may very well get 2 or 3 members on the first due engine and 5 on the first due truck, or visa versa there needs to be the flexability to take members off the tasks assigned to the apparatus they arrive on and switch them to another set of tasks normally performed by the crew of another apparatus type.

    As far as tactics, this is important as in many places, unless there is a dedicated truck company with dedicated tasks, the pulling of the false celing will be a task assigned to the interior line crews. If you have a 3-man team, there is simply no reason why the crew with the line not capable of pulling ceiling tiles as they go for inspection.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-22-2010, 09:59 AM.

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  • mikeyboy
    replied
    Another thought... The use of a flat roof that is of light-weight construction and then all the stuff that is kept up there such as Commercial A/C Units.

    Add to this the recent use of "membrane" to cover the decking. You can visually tell this by the plastic vent covers to allow air to circulate through and moisture to escape. On my Truck Company, we all carry straight razors to cut the membrane. Another good way to deal with it is to knock-off the plastic vent and rip the membrane with a Rubbish Hook.

    The list is long.....

    Leave a comment:


  • nyckftbl
    replied
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Honestly, I really don't care what you do in NYC.

    My point was simply that the majority of the fire service, which is primarily volunteer, has a very difficult time operating with the engine-truck concept that you are quite used to, either because the majority of VFDs do not operate truck companies, and if they do, staffing on engines and trucks is irregular and often "engine guys" have to do truck work and "truck guys" may have to be swapped into engine work.

    The same can be said for VFDs that don't run trucks but may operate a rescue or squad which may function as a truck.

    In these situations it's quite common that the guys arriving on the engine(s) will pull line , attack interior, set up PPV, go to the roof and pull ceilings and conduct overhaul. It's also quite possible that if the engines are arrive short, the guys who arrive on the truck will be assigned hose work. Again, all of the above fireground operations but in many places the terms engine work and truck work don't exist.
    You are still arguing a completely different topic....

    and as for me not understanding how VFDs work.....LOL

    Leave a comment:


  • Rescue101
    replied
    Originally posted by snowball View Post
    It won't let you say C.O.C.K.loft.
    Or C.O.C.K.tail,T.c.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rescue101
    replied
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Honestly, I really don't care what you do in NYC.

    My point was simply that the majority of the fire service, which is primarily volunteer, has a very difficult time operating with the engine-truck concept that you are quite used to, either because the majority of VFDs do not operate truck companies, and if they do, staffing on engines and trucks is irregular and often "engine guys" have to do truck work and "truck guys" may have to be swapped into engine work.

    The same can be said for VFDs that don't run trucks but may operate a rescue or squad which may function as a truck.

    In these situations it's quite common that the guys arriving on the engine(s) will pull line , attack interior, set up PPV, go to the roof and pull ceilings and conduct overhaul. It's also quite possible that if the engines are arrive short, the guys who arrive on the truck will be assigned hose work. Again, all of the above fireground operations but in many places the terms engine work and truck work don't exist.
    Hmmn,Interesting. Nah, can't be. Our TRUCK (Quint)carries enough equipment that we can WORK four "truck"companies and TWO Engine companies off one rig. Last time I checked, we fit into the "volunteer" checkbox. Now the membership are cross trained but when they're on the TRUCK,the first crew off does TRUCK work. Other companies arriving MAY be assigned an Engine co function. And our system works for us, based on our response numbers . T.C.

    Leave a comment:


  • snowball
    replied
    Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Anyway, back to the topic at hand (Im sure LA would love to chime in with tactics LOL)....when popping the tile or drop down ceiling....it may not be a bad idea to flip the hook over and make a smaller hole with just the but end of the hook. Its rare, but on occasion the hook can get caught up and pull down a larger section of ceiling, causing a ****loft explosion.
    It won't let you say C.O.C.K.loft.

    Leave a comment:


  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
    And maybe its just the 12,000 of us....but thats ok...keep complaining you are different and that we dont understand you and your dept while commenting on our operations.
    Honestly, I really don't care what you do in NYC.

    My point was simply that the majority of the fire service, which is primarily volunteer, has a very difficult time operating with the engine-truck concept that you are quite used to, either because the majority of VFDs do not operate truck companies, and if they do, staffing on engines and trucks is irregular and often "engine guys" have to do truck work and "truck guys" may have to be swapped into engine work.

    The same can be said for VFDs that don't run trucks but may operate a rescue or squad which may function as a truck.

    In these situations it's quite common that the guys arriving on the engine(s) will pull line , attack interior, set up PPV, go to the roof and pull ceilings and conduct overhaul. It's also quite possible that if the engines are arrive short, the guys who arrive on the truck will be assigned hose work. Again, all of the above fireground operations but in many places the terms engine work and truck work don't exist.

    Leave a comment:


  • nyckftbl
    replied
    Anyway, back to the topic at hand (Im sure LA would love to chime in with tactics LOL)....when popping the tile or drop down ceiling....it may not be a bad idea to flip the hook over and make a smaller hole with just the but end of the hook. Its rare, but on occasion the hook can get caught up and pull down a larger section of ceiling, causing a ****loft explosion.

    Leave a comment:


  • nyckftbl
    replied
    Originally posted by nameless View Post
    when you commit an entire company to a line, and the officer counts as one of them. For some people this isn't short manpower, but I'm sure down in the big city you guys wouldn't be screaming you're short of people.
    Can I get this in English?

    Leave a comment:


  • nyckftbl
    replied
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Negative. It is a firefighting function.

    Um no. EVERYTHING we do is a firefighting function...but its still broken down into engine and truck work....as you clearly state further down.
    I have been on several volunteer departments with ladders and we never had a division of labor. Guys who arrived on the engine, rescue or truck were simply a part of the manpower pool and could be given any task needed to be accomplished at the time of arrival.

    A Pickup game isnt the best or most efficient way to run a fireground, period. I understand thats what some have to work with. doesnt make it right.
    A guy arriving on an engine was just as likely to be assigned a search or ventilation function as a guy arriving on the truck was to be assigned to interior fire attack on a handline or perform water supply tasks.

    Different argument completely.
    It had to do with fireground needs at the moment that piece arrived and the experience and training level of the personnel as to where they would be assigned and had nothing to do with the truck they arrived on. That was simply transportation.

    Ill let the people who have been saved by aerials that they werent really saved by the rig.

    I can see some division of labor in career department where the companies have dedicated staffing, but even then, there must be times where a ventilation need may trump a handline need, or vis versa, and an engine company may have to assist in ventilation or a truck company may have to assist in fire attack. In volunteer and combo call departments with variable staffing and irregular response times, I see fireground actions as ventilation needs, forcible entry needs, interior attack needs, etc. etc. rather than as a function of a specific piece of apparatus.



    In my current department, the closest truck readily available to us is close to 30 minutes out. We have a city 75' quint about 4 minutes from our border, but it's rare that we utilize the city, for a variety of valid reasons.

    It's probably just me .... and the other 300 people on those departments.
    And maybe its just the 12,000 of us....but thats ok...keep complaining you are different and that we dont understand you and your dept while commenting on our operations.

    Leave a comment:


  • nameless
    replied
    Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
    3rd or 4th guy on the line, with short manpower? Of course. I only responded after the "good engine" comment.

    when you commit an entire company to a line, and the officer counts as one of them. For some people this isn't short manpower, but I'm sure down in the big city you guys wouldn't be screaming you're short of people.

    Leave a comment:

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