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  • #46
    Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
    just because you do it that way doesnt make it right. and having a hook w you while backing up someone on a 2 1/2" isnt just hard, its stupid.


    BTW, our engines do just fine. Maybe you just need better trucks.
    No, we just need better staffing. It must be nice in the Greatest City in the World to have half a dozen guys jump off a ladder company. We usually run minimum staffing of 3 people on our engines and trucks. You learn to do more by your self that way.

    Oh, but I must be wrong.

    Originally posted by snowball View Post
    I think he may have been talking about a third or fourth guy on the hook brother. They probably don't use smoothbore either so the hose is easier to handle with 2.
    We use smoothbore, use CAFS too which makes the hose easy to handle and helps greatly with the minimum staffing. I ain't talking about crawling down a blackend hallway taking a beating with a hose line in one hand and a hook in another. I am saying that in a strip mall, you can have a hook, or have someone get you one real quick, open up and check for extension. Often you don't need a freaking hook, pop the ceiling tiles with something, open the wall with an axe.

    I feel bad for people that divide engine and truck work up to the extreme and can't fathom that a hose team might actually do their job and ensure the fire is completely out before calling victory.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

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    • #47
      I feel ya Lyman.
      IAFF

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      • #48
        Now that is just scary.
        Fire Service Interview questions - The blog that has REAL interview questions for firefighters, Engineers, Lieutenants, and Captains !

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        • #49
          Originally posted by FiremanLyman View Post
          No, we just need better staffing. It must be nice in the Greatest City in the World to have half a dozen guys jump off a ladder company. We usually run minimum staffing of 3 people on our engines and trucks.
          You bring up your staffing. That just seems like another argument for your engines doing their own work, and letting the truck do the truck work...
          Just a typical moronic, childish, idiotic munchkin.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
            BTW, our engines do just fine. Maybe you just need better trucks.
            some of us just dont show up with enough people on the initial alarm to dog pile the fire and smoother it.


            3rd or 4th guy on the line can have a 6ft hook with him. Drop it when you hump line, and if moving put you can toss it forward/carry it/or kick it up with you.
            Last edited by nameless; 11-21-2010, 03:49 PM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by FiremanLyman View Post
              No, we just need better staffing. It must be nice in the Greatest City in the World to have half a dozen guys jump off a ladder company. We usually run minimum staffing of 3 people on our engines and trucks. You learn to do more by your self that way.

              Oh, but I must be wrong.



              We use smoothbore, use CAFS too which makes the hose easy to handle and helps greatly with the minimum staffing. I ain't talking about crawling down a blackend hallway taking a beating with a hose line in one hand and a hook in another. I am saying that in a strip mall, you can have a hook, or have someone get you one real quick, open up and check for extension. Often you don't need a freaking hook, pop the ceiling tiles with something, open the wall with an axe.

              I feel bad for people that divide engine and truck work up to the extreme and can't fathom that a hose team might actually do their job and ensure the fire is completely out before calling victory.
              Just because I said your way wasnt the only way to be right doesnt necessarily mean it was wrong....YOU were the one who made the comment about good engine companies. I happen to think my engine company (as well as many around here, not just in NYC) happen to be damn good at what we do, and it doesnt involve pulling ceilings to make us "good". But maybe thats just me. It isnt our fault we have better staffing than most.

              And you can feel bad for me all you want...it doesnt bother me any. my fires go out too. And I dont need to be short staffed to learn.
              Last edited by nyckftbl; 11-21-2010, 05:26 PM.
              Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by nameless View Post
                some of us just dont show up with enough people on the initial alarm to dog pile the fire and smoother it.


                3rd or 4th guy on the line can have a 6ft hook with him. Drop it when you hump line, and if moving put you can toss it forward/carry it/or kick it up with you.
                3rd or 4th guy on the line, with short manpower? Of course. I only responded after the "good engine" comment.
                Last edited by nyckftbl; 11-21-2010, 05:26 PM.
                Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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                • #53
                  Last post from me as we have run pretty far away from the original strip mall fire topic. Also want to extend the olive branch, did not want to start a "what tools you carry", "FDNY vs The World" or "manpower" discussion. We all got to work with what we got. For us that means checking for extension, for others with greater manpower that means letting the truck do truck work.

                  Originally posted by Whocares View Post
                  You bring up your staffing. That just seems like another argument for your engines doing their own work, and letting the truck do the truck work...
                  ...or one company having to do both because you are short on manpower. 6 in one hand, half dozen in the other.

                  Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
                  Just because I said your way wasnt the only way to be right doesnt necessarily mean it was wrong....YOU were the one who made the comment about good engine companies. I happen to think my engine company (as well as many around here, not just in NYC) happen to be damn good at what we do, and it doesnt involve pulling ceilings to make us "good". But maybe thats just me. It isnt our fault we have better staffing than most.
                  Agree, it is out of the norm for a engine to have to pull anything but a line. I for one would love not to have to out of nessesity. And your staffing is a blessing that most don't have. Appriciate the input either way.

                  Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
                  And you can feel bad for me all you want...it doesnt bother me any. my fires go out too. And I dont need to be short staffed to learn.
                  Gottcha. In retrospect, I don't feel bad for you. I feel more bad for me now.

                  Originally posted by nameless View Post
                  some of us just dont show up with enough people on the initial alarm to dog pile the fire and smoother it.


                  3rd or 4th guy on the line can have a 6ft hook with him. Drop it when you hump line, and if moving put you can toss it forward/carry it/or kick it up with you.
                  What is this 3rd or 4th man on the line you speak of?

                  Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
                  3rd or 4th guy on the line, with short manpower? Of course.
                  Glad someone else caught that logic.
                  ~Drew
                  Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
                  USAR TF Rescue Specialist

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Jonnee View Post
                    The back up member on the line, better not have a hook in their hands. That is a truck company function and a back up member on a hand line is doing a engine company function and therefore doesn't had the time to be carrying a hook.
                    Negative. It is a firefighting function.

                    I have been on several volunteer departments with ladders and we never had a division of labor. Guys who arrived on the engine, rescue or truck were simply a part of the manpower pool and could be given any task needed to be accomplished at the time of arrival.

                    A guy arriving on an engine was just as likely to be assigned a search or ventilation function as a guy arriving on the truck was to be assigned to interior fire attack on a handline or perform water supply tasks.

                    It had to do with fireground needs at the moment that piece arrived and the experience and training level of the personnel as to where they would be assigned and had nothing to do with the truck they arrived on. That was simply transportation.

                    I can see some division of labor in career department where the companies have dedicated staffing, but even then, there must be times where a ventilation need may trump a handline need, or vis versa, and an engine company may have to assist in ventilation or a truck company may have to assist in fire attack. In volunteer and combo call departments with variable staffing and irregular response times, I see fireground actions as ventilation needs, forcible entry needs, interior attack needs, etc. etc. rather than as a function of a specific piece of apparatus.

                    In my current department, the closest truck readily available to us is close to 30 minutes out. We have a city 75' quint about 4 minutes from our border, but it's rare that we utilize the city, for a variety of valid reasons.

                    It's probably just me .... and the other 300 people on those departments.
                    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-21-2010, 06:04 PM.
                    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by FiremanLyman View Post
                      Last post from me as we have run pretty far away from the original strip mall fire topic. Also want to extend the olive branch, did not want to start a "what tools you carry", "FDNY vs The World" or "manpower" discussion. We all got to work with what we got. For us that means checking for extension, for others with greater manpower that means letting the truck do truck work.



                      ...or one company having to do both because you are short on manpower. 6 in one hand, half dozen in the other.



                      Agree, it is out of the norm for a engine to have to pull anything but a line. I for one would love not to have to out of nessesity. And your staffing is a blessing that most don't have. Appriciate the input either way.



                      Gottcha. In retrospect, I don't feel bad for you. I feel more bad for me now.



                      What is this 3rd or 4th man on the line you speak of?



                      Glad someone else caught that logic.
                      Trust me I completely understand.....not all of us walked into the job with no prior knowledge of how most other depts work....I know all too well how 4 guys need to do the job of 8 or 10. I think I just misunderstood what you were trying to say with the "good engine" thing (of course knowing full well the 'tard who posted right above this response would be involved tainted my view of the conversation ) and for helping derail the thread I apologize.
                      Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
                        3rd or 4th guy on the line, with short manpower? Of course. I only responded after the "good engine" comment.

                        when you commit an entire company to a line, and the officer counts as one of them. For some people this isn't short manpower, but I'm sure down in the big city you guys wouldn't be screaming you're short of people.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                          Negative. It is a firefighting function.

                          Um no. EVERYTHING we do is a firefighting function...but its still broken down into engine and truck work....as you clearly state further down.
                          I have been on several volunteer departments with ladders and we never had a division of labor. Guys who arrived on the engine, rescue or truck were simply a part of the manpower pool and could be given any task needed to be accomplished at the time of arrival.

                          A Pickup game isnt the best or most efficient way to run a fireground, period. I understand thats what some have to work with. doesnt make it right.
                          A guy arriving on an engine was just as likely to be assigned a search or ventilation function as a guy arriving on the truck was to be assigned to interior fire attack on a handline or perform water supply tasks.

                          Different argument completely.
                          It had to do with fireground needs at the moment that piece arrived and the experience and training level of the personnel as to where they would be assigned and had nothing to do with the truck they arrived on. That was simply transportation.

                          Ill let the people who have been saved by aerials that they werent really saved by the rig.

                          I can see some division of labor in career department where the companies have dedicated staffing, but even then, there must be times where a ventilation need may trump a handline need, or vis versa, and an engine company may have to assist in ventilation or a truck company may have to assist in fire attack. In volunteer and combo call departments with variable staffing and irregular response times, I see fireground actions as ventilation needs, forcible entry needs, interior attack needs, etc. etc. rather than as a function of a specific piece of apparatus.



                          In my current department, the closest truck readily available to us is close to 30 minutes out. We have a city 75' quint about 4 minutes from our border, but it's rare that we utilize the city, for a variety of valid reasons.

                          It's probably just me .... and the other 300 people on those departments.
                          And maybe its just the 12,000 of us....but thats ok...keep complaining you are different and that we dont understand you and your dept while commenting on our operations.
                          Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by nameless View Post
                            when you commit an entire company to a line, and the officer counts as one of them. For some people this isn't short manpower, but I'm sure down in the big city you guys wouldn't be screaming you're short of people.
                            Can I get this in English?
                            Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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                            • #59
                              Anyway, back to the topic at hand (Im sure LA would love to chime in with tactics LOL)....when popping the tile or drop down ceiling....it may not be a bad idea to flip the hook over and make a smaller hole with just the but end of the hook. Its rare, but on occasion the hook can get caught up and pull down a larger section of ceiling, causing a ****loft explosion.
                              Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
                                And maybe its just the 12,000 of us....but thats ok...keep complaining you are different and that we dont understand you and your dept while commenting on our operations.
                                Honestly, I really don't care what you do in NYC.

                                My point was simply that the majority of the fire service, which is primarily volunteer, has a very difficult time operating with the engine-truck concept that you are quite used to, either because the majority of VFDs do not operate truck companies, and if they do, staffing on engines and trucks is irregular and often "engine guys" have to do truck work and "truck guys" may have to be swapped into engine work.

                                The same can be said for VFDs that don't run trucks but may operate a rescue or squad which may function as a truck.

                                In these situations it's quite common that the guys arriving on the engine(s) will pull line , attack interior, set up PPV, go to the roof and pull ceilings and conduct overhaul. It's also quite possible that if the engines are arrive short, the guys who arrive on the truck will be assigned hose work. Again, all of the above fireground operations but in many places the terms engine work and truck work don't exist.
                                Train to fight the fires you fight.

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