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Strip Mall Fires....

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  • nyckftbl
    replied
    Originally posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    Last post from me as we have run pretty far away from the original strip mall fire topic. Also want to extend the olive branch, did not want to start a "what tools you carry", "FDNY vs The World" or "manpower" discussion. We all got to work with what we got. For us that means checking for extension, for others with greater manpower that means letting the truck do truck work.



    ...or one company having to do both because you are short on manpower. 6 in one hand, half dozen in the other.



    Agree, it is out of the norm for a engine to have to pull anything but a line. I for one would love not to have to out of nessesity. And your staffing is a blessing that most don't have. Appriciate the input either way.



    Gottcha. In retrospect, I don't feel bad for you. I feel more bad for me now.



    What is this 3rd or 4th man on the line you speak of?



    Glad someone else caught that logic.
    Trust me I completely understand.....not all of us walked into the job with no prior knowledge of how most other depts work....I know all too well how 4 guys need to do the job of 8 or 10. I think I just misunderstood what you were trying to say with the "good engine" thing (of course knowing full well the 'tard who posted right above this response would be involved tainted my view of the conversation ) and for helping derail the thread I apologize.

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  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Originally posted by Jonnee View Post
    The back up member on the line, better not have a hook in their hands. That is a truck company function and a back up member on a hand line is doing a engine company function and therefore doesn't had the time to be carrying a hook.
    Negative. It is a firefighting function.

    I have been on several volunteer departments with ladders and we never had a division of labor. Guys who arrived on the engine, rescue or truck were simply a part of the manpower pool and could be given any task needed to be accomplished at the time of arrival.

    A guy arriving on an engine was just as likely to be assigned a search or ventilation function as a guy arriving on the truck was to be assigned to interior fire attack on a handline or perform water supply tasks.

    It had to do with fireground needs at the moment that piece arrived and the experience and training level of the personnel as to where they would be assigned and had nothing to do with the truck they arrived on. That was simply transportation.

    I can see some division of labor in career department where the companies have dedicated staffing, but even then, there must be times where a ventilation need may trump a handline need, or vis versa, and an engine company may have to assist in ventilation or a truck company may have to assist in fire attack. In volunteer and combo call departments with variable staffing and irregular response times, I see fireground actions as ventilation needs, forcible entry needs, interior attack needs, etc. etc. rather than as a function of a specific piece of apparatus.

    In my current department, the closest truck readily available to us is close to 30 minutes out. We have a city 75' quint about 4 minutes from our border, but it's rare that we utilize the city, for a variety of valid reasons.

    It's probably just me .... and the other 300 people on those departments.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-21-2010, 06:04 PM.

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  • FiremanLyman
    replied
    Last post from me as we have run pretty far away from the original strip mall fire topic. Also want to extend the olive branch, did not want to start a "what tools you carry", "FDNY vs The World" or "manpower" discussion. We all got to work with what we got. For us that means checking for extension, for others with greater manpower that means letting the truck do truck work.

    Originally posted by Whocares View Post
    You bring up your staffing. That just seems like another argument for your engines doing their own work, and letting the truck do the truck work...
    ...or one company having to do both because you are short on manpower. 6 in one hand, half dozen in the other.

    Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Just because I said your way wasnt the only way to be right doesnt necessarily mean it was wrong....YOU were the one who made the comment about good engine companies. I happen to think my engine company (as well as many around here, not just in NYC) happen to be damn good at what we do, and it doesnt involve pulling ceilings to make us "good". But maybe thats just me. It isnt our fault we have better staffing than most.
    Agree, it is out of the norm for a engine to have to pull anything but a line. I for one would love not to have to out of nessesity. And your staffing is a blessing that most don't have. Appriciate the input either way.

    Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
    And you can feel bad for me all you want...it doesnt bother me any. my fires go out too. And I dont need to be short staffed to learn.
    Gottcha. In retrospect, I don't feel bad for you. I feel more bad for me now.

    Originally posted by nameless View Post
    some of us just dont show up with enough people on the initial alarm to dog pile the fire and smoother it.


    3rd or 4th guy on the line can have a 6ft hook with him. Drop it when you hump line, and if moving put you can toss it forward/carry it/or kick it up with you.
    What is this 3rd or 4th man on the line you speak of?

    Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
    3rd or 4th guy on the line, with short manpower? Of course.
    Glad someone else caught that logic.

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  • nyckftbl
    replied
    Originally posted by nameless View Post
    some of us just dont show up with enough people on the initial alarm to dog pile the fire and smoother it.


    3rd or 4th guy on the line can have a 6ft hook with him. Drop it when you hump line, and if moving put you can toss it forward/carry it/or kick it up with you.
    3rd or 4th guy on the line, with short manpower? Of course. I only responded after the "good engine" comment.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 11-21-2010, 05:26 PM.

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  • nyckftbl
    replied
    Originally posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    No, we just need better staffing. It must be nice in the Greatest City in the World to have half a dozen guys jump off a ladder company. We usually run minimum staffing of 3 people on our engines and trucks. You learn to do more by your self that way.

    Oh, but I must be wrong.



    We use smoothbore, use CAFS too which makes the hose easy to handle and helps greatly with the minimum staffing. I ain't talking about crawling down a blackend hallway taking a beating with a hose line in one hand and a hook in another. I am saying that in a strip mall, you can have a hook, or have someone get you one real quick, open up and check for extension. Often you don't need a freaking hook, pop the ceiling tiles with something, open the wall with an axe.

    I feel bad for people that divide engine and truck work up to the extreme and can't fathom that a hose team might actually do their job and ensure the fire is completely out before calling victory.
    Just because I said your way wasnt the only way to be right doesnt necessarily mean it was wrong....YOU were the one who made the comment about good engine companies. I happen to think my engine company (as well as many around here, not just in NYC) happen to be damn good at what we do, and it doesnt involve pulling ceilings to make us "good". But maybe thats just me. It isnt our fault we have better staffing than most.

    And you can feel bad for me all you want...it doesnt bother me any. my fires go out too. And I dont need to be short staffed to learn.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 11-21-2010, 05:26 PM.

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  • nameless
    replied
    Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
    BTW, our engines do just fine. Maybe you just need better trucks.
    some of us just dont show up with enough people on the initial alarm to dog pile the fire and smoother it.


    3rd or 4th guy on the line can have a 6ft hook with him. Drop it when you hump line, and if moving put you can toss it forward/carry it/or kick it up with you.
    Last edited by nameless; 11-21-2010, 03:49 PM.

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  • Whocares
    replied
    Originally posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    No, we just need better staffing. It must be nice in the Greatest City in the World to have half a dozen guys jump off a ladder company. We usually run minimum staffing of 3 people on our engines and trucks.
    You bring up your staffing. That just seems like another argument for your engines doing their own work, and letting the truck do the truck work...

    Leave a comment:


  • JT_Fire_2000
    replied
    Now that is just scary.

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  • snowball
    replied
    I feel ya Lyman.

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  • FiremanLyman
    replied
    Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
    just because you do it that way doesnt make it right. and having a hook w you while backing up someone on a 2 1/2" isnt just hard, its stupid.


    BTW, our engines do just fine. Maybe you just need better trucks.
    No, we just need better staffing. It must be nice in the Greatest City in the World to have half a dozen guys jump off a ladder company. We usually run minimum staffing of 3 people on our engines and trucks. You learn to do more by your self that way.

    Oh, but I must be wrong.

    Originally posted by snowball View Post
    I think he may have been talking about a third or fourth guy on the hook brother. They probably don't use smoothbore either so the hose is easier to handle with 2.
    We use smoothbore, use CAFS too which makes the hose easy to handle and helps greatly with the minimum staffing. I ain't talking about crawling down a blackend hallway taking a beating with a hose line in one hand and a hook in another. I am saying that in a strip mall, you can have a hook, or have someone get you one real quick, open up and check for extension. Often you don't need a freaking hook, pop the ceiling tiles with something, open the wall with an axe.

    I feel bad for people that divide engine and truck work up to the extreme and can't fathom that a hose team might actually do their job and ensure the fire is completely out before calling victory.

    Leave a comment:


  • nyckftbl
    replied
    Originally posted by snowball View Post
    I think he may have been talking about a third or fourth guy on the hook brother. They probably don't use smoothbore either so the hose is easier to handle with 2.
    Ahh...explains having to open up quicker....takes longer to put the fire out.

    Leave a comment:


  • snowball
    replied
    Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
    just because you do it that way doesnt make it right. and having a hook w you while backing up someone on a 2 1/2" isnt just hard, its stupid.
    I think he may have been talking about a third or fourth guy on the hook brother. They probably don't use smoothbore either so the hose is easier to handle with 2.

    Leave a comment:


  • nyckftbl
    replied
    Originally posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    Agreed, two distinct functions. But a good engine company is not going to sit there and wait for a truck to come pull ceiling to check for extension in the first minute after knockdown. In most residentials it is easy, either you pull the ceiling or walls with with a halligan / axe / closet hook or the truck will be right behind you. In a strip mall... usually our truck is still venting or forcing a dozen doors throughout the strip center. Having a pike with you is not that hard, we carry two on the engine anyways.
    just because you do it that way doesnt make it right. and having a hook w you while backing up someone on a 2 1/2" isnt just hard, its stupid.


    BTW, our engines do just fine. Maybe you just need better trucks.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 11-20-2010, 10:06 PM.

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  • Rescue101
    replied
    Originally posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    Agreed, two distinct functions. But a good engine company is not going to sit there and wait for a truck to come pull ceiling to check for extension in the first minute after knockdown. In most residentials it is easy, either you pull the ceiling or walls with with a halligan / axe / closet hook or the truck will be right behind you. In a strip mall... usually our truck is still venting or forcing a dozen doors throughout the strip center. Having a pike with you is not that hard, we carry two on the engine anyways.
    Couldn't tell you,it DOESN'T happen HERE. Second Engine MIGHT get assigned TRUCK work,but the primary Engine doesn't pull ceilings. Period. If that doesn't work for you,that's fine.In the close to half a century I can't think of a time we were ever unable to accomplish both tasks in a timely manner. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 11-21-2010, 08:56 PM.

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  • FiremanLyman
    replied
    Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
    ENGINE pull a ceiling? Tell me you're kidding. Even HERE,it's TWO distinct functions. Biggest tool the eng co carries MIGHT be a halligan or an axe. T.C.
    Agreed, two distinct functions. But a good engine company is not going to sit there and wait for a truck to come pull ceiling to check for extension in the first minute after knockdown. In most residentials it is easy, either you pull the ceiling or walls with with a halligan / axe / closet hook or the truck will be right behind you. In a strip mall... usually our truck is still venting or forcing a dozen doors throughout the strip center. Having a pike with you is not that hard, we carry two on the engine anyways.

    Leave a comment:

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