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Women in the fire service

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  • flipper123
    replied
    An age old topic, but more relevant today than ever.
    The response by some cities to, "how to we get more females on the job?" was to make the entrance physical test easier.
    Now we have the CPAT being used all over the place.

    The question could be asked, "Is the CPAT an accurate reflection of the demands that will be placed on a recruit at the Academy?".
    In a large neighboring dept here, they get alot of females washing out or injured during their academy. Higher ups ask why this could be happening when their recruits passed the CPAT with flying colors?
    Because the CPAt doesn't require a charged hose advance; in fact, the CPAt can be completed without breaking a sweat.
    It's a warm-iup for a real test.
    The CPAT is a joke, but it is used to facillitate the hiring of "underepresented" groups.

    Sure, females have to pass the same test as males to get hired.
    It's the test that is used that's the problem.

    No one I have worked with has an issue with a female on the job.
    But many have issues with lightweights that can't do anything on the job without getting injured.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dickey
    replied
    Just as an example, the Madison, WI fire chief is female.
    http://www.cityofmadison.com/fire/about/welcome.cfm


    I agree as well there are good and bad officers regardless of being male or female. Some females will do laps around some guys.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paraphoe
    replied
    Originally posted by WD6956 View Post
    I personally have no issue with any coworker who can do the job, period. Age, race, sex, religious preference, whatever. We all bleed to the same color blood. All i care about is that you up to the challenge because i don't want to be in a burning building with someone who i cannot depend on to get me or anybody else out because they lack the physical or mental strength........[continued post truncated]
    Excellent, excellent post. Couldn't have said it any better. Nice work brother.

    Leave a comment:


  • nameless
    replied
    the problem is higher ups concerned about numbers and looks force through women that should have never been there in the first place, and with their low representation in the fire service it only takes a couple tokens before you get people saying "most are incompetent, etc...).

    It happens to other groups, but when you have so many white guys in the fire service it takes more than a couple tokens to sour the bunch.

    Leave a comment:


  • JayDudley
    replied
    Women in the Fire Service

    I can say that I agree with Fire 49...There are good ones and bad ones. With the Department I work with now we have a female Captain and a Female Engineer and both do an excellent job. With that said...all of our Firefighters do excellent work and were rewarded as of today for their effort.

    Fire Commissioner,
    District #2

    Leave a comment:


  • FFFRED
    replied
    Some interesting points-

    Originally posted by gunnyv View Post
    She actually has the nerve to complain that a disproportionate number of whites will get legacy credit, because 331 of the 343 who died on 9/11 were white, and none were female.
    1st-331 weren't "white". As a demonstration of where her concern really lies (being a tool of the Vulcans not an advocate for all her fermale members regardless of race or ethnicity) she only knows the black members. I know a number of men who were part or all Hispanic who died on 9-11. Yet she came so unprepared for her testimony she didn't even bother to look into this fact.

    2nd- The "legacy" credit doesn't benefit the person who provides the benefit (via their death LOD), it is provided to those who recieve the benefit (the children of the Civil Servant who suffered LODD)

    Therefore unless firemen's wives stopped giving birth to daughters this position she takes is baseless and without merit.

    As if that isn't enough to whine about, the veterans' credit doesn't help either, because there aren't enough women in the military. That is funny, about 20% (over 300,000 active duty) of current military personnel are female. Guess what? If you are a female who wants to join FDNY, then maybe you should join the military first, and earn the credit like the others have!
    You are correct, Last I checked there is an open door at the recruiting office. The military and their "gender-normed standards" are more than willing and accepting of women.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 11-01-2010, 11:03 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • WD6956
    replied
    Originally posted by FFFRED View Post
    Also you can read for yourself what the women’s lobby is all about by reading the transcript here from the New York City Council Hearing on a proposed 8 point advantage on the FDNY entrance exam for having a high school diploma or GED from a NYC high school.

    Ms. Regina Wilsons (president of United Women Firefighters) embarrassing testimony begins on the last line of page 70.

    Hearing Transcript

    The depth and breadth of ignorance displayed in their words is astounding if not unsettling.

    FTM-PTB
    Good lord, who the hell voted that woman to represent them? Is she really as stupid as she sounds? Her arguments are laughable at best. The sept 11th reference is insulting and the veterans credits? Last i checked women are free to do almost anything in the military with exception of special forces. Why should the department make an exception to allow women a back door entrance simply because many women choose not to serve?.
    Her comments were poorly prepared and i can see not much thought went into them. Those female firefighters need a new leader. She is an idiot.

    And Paul Washington? He is a racist who is only serving to keep racism alive. In this case, reverse racism.

    People need to stop and realize that just because a city is diverse does not mean every occupation in that city will follow. Go to an NYC Airport. How many minority pilots do you see? Not many, far less then half. Hell, i spent 4 years in a job that had me flying all over the country several times a MONTH. I can count the number of non white pilots i saw on one hand. But why are people not starting a lawsuit against the airlines? Why? Because of the training and skill required to be a pilot. Would you want them to lower the standards or introduce quotas and have people less qualified to fly planes hired simply to make others feel like the percentages are fair? I sure as hell would'nt. Firefighting is FAR more dangerous then being an airline pilot. Look at the stats. Firefighting tests and the hiring pool should NOT be dumbed down simply because some people do not have the physical or mental means to do it. You either have what it takes, or you don't. If you can't hack it, find a different career path, but stop making excuses of racism or sexism to make up for your own shortcomings. I am sick and tired of this entitlement nonsense where if people do not get their way, it MUST be sombody elses fault. Take some friggin responsibiltiy for your own actions.

    You want to be a firefighter but the test is too hard? STUDY HARDER. You want to be a firefighter but the physical is too tough? TRAIN HARDER. And if you cannot pass either, give up and know you tried. Life goes on. I wanted to be a fighter pilot, but guess what, i was too stupid to get the scores i needed. I am not going to sue the Navy saying the tests discriminate aginst stupid people. I am going to suck it up and move on. Maybe other people should learn that. Life does not always go your way. And if it does'nt, don't blame other people and try to ruin it for the ones who tried.

    Ill say it again, i don't care if your a male or female, i don't care what race you are and i don't care if you are gay or stright. So long as you have my back in a fire and can meet the challenges, i have your back. But i hate seeing this institution dumbed down and weakened so that others who do not have what it takes can weasel there way in.

    Having dreamed of the FDNY when i was younger and taken tests, i know how hard it must be to have that dream shattered. But to the guys and girls on the 6019 list, they must be in a living hell. To come that close and then have it ripped away because of people who don't have the guts to try harder is devastating. If i was one of the top 300 on that list, i would be inconsolable at this point.

    Leave a comment:


  • gunnyv
    replied
    Originally posted by FFFRED View Post
    Ms. Regina Wilsons (president of United Women Firefighters) embarrassing testimony begins on the last line of page 70.

    Hearing Transcript

    The depth and breadth of ignorance displayed in their words is astounding if not unsettling.

    FTM-PTB
    She actually has the nerve to complain that a disproportionate number of whites will get legacy credit, because 331 of the 343 who died on 9/11 were white, and none were female.

    As if that isn't enough to whine about, the veterans' credit doesn't help either, because there aren't enough women in the military. That is funny, about 20% (over 300,000 active duty) of current military personnel are female. Guess what? If you are a female who wants to join FDNY, then maybe you should join the military first, and earn the credit like the others have!

    Leave a comment:


  • FFFRED
    replied
    Also you can read for yourself what the women’s lobby is all about by reading the transcript here from the New York City Council Hearing on a proposed 8 point advantage on the FDNY entrance exam for having a high school diploma or GED from a NYC high school.

    Ms. Regina Wilsons (president of United Women Firefighters) embarrassing testimony begins on the last line of page 70.

    Hearing Transcript

    The depth and breadth of ignorance displayed in their words is astounding if not unsettling.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 11-01-2010, 08:40 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • pasobuff
    replied
    Originally posted by WD6956 View Post
    I personally have no issue with any coworker who can do the job, period. Age, race, sex, religious preference, whatever. We all bleed to the same color blood. All i care about is that you up to the challenge because i don't want to be in a burning building with someone who i cannot depend on to get me or anybody else out because they lack the physical or mental strength.

    Firefighting is a very physically demanding job. Not just pulling hose, pulling cielings, climbing ladders, lifting, etc. But just the act of walking when your weighed down with 100+ pounds of gear. It is not something everyone can do. And i know plenty of MEN who are in poor shape. So the idea that women as a whole cannot do it and men can is nonsense. Many people say "Firefighting is a mans job", well, i would be happy to show you plenty of MEN who cannot do it well.

    If a woman can meet the same physical requirements of the job as a man, i am happy to have her with me. I know some TOUGH women who would put men to shame. To label ANY woman as being weaker then a man is ignorant. But I do not believe in a seperate, easier physical for women because it makes no sense. Hose does not get lighter, SCBA's do not get lighter and fire does not burn cooler when a woman is doing it. So why should the standards be less? There is currently grumblings with a womans group in the FDNY about a lawsuit:

    http://www.firefightingnews.com/arti...rticleID=76399

    But once again, the group is complaining that the number of women is so low, but how many actually apply?. I am from NY and was born in the Bronx. I cannot think of one girl i grew up with who ever wanted to be a Firefighter let alone one in NYC.

    This quote makes me irate:

    "The group also cautioned the judge that if the new requirements put a greater emphasis on strength, more women will be excluded from joining the department"

    WHAT??? You want to be treated as equals and be able to be firefighters but want lower standards? Make up your mind. You will never be equal if you are held to a lower standard. And how is that safe? If there physical requirements are lower, that is dangerous. Again, things are not suddenly lighter and easier if your a female.

    Ill say it again, i have no problem at all with women in the fire service. But there should be no double standard. Male or female, you need to meet the same standards. Unless you can convince me that the job is somehow easier for females and therefore they do not need to be able to lift the same amount of weight.
    I agree pretty much word for word with this post.....

    One of the reasons I never applied for a career FD position - I KNEW there was a pretty good chance that I would not pass the physical part of the training. As a volunteer, I could do the job, but on a 5 day a week job, nope.....

    Do I think standards should be made less stringent for ANYONE to pass - NO.....there should be ONE standard - you pass, you pass.....if you can't pass, and really want the job, WORK FOR IT!.....

    That being said, I believe there can be a job for almost everyone, for example - I know I wouldn't have been able to drag a 200lb plus comrade out of a building...BUT - give me a confined space, and I could get into a LOT of spaces a bigger guy couldn't, plus would climb ladders all day etc.....

    I was able to take advantage of the training opportunities offered to me as a volunteer, work my way up the ladder (was Capt. as highest rank in Vol FD) and eventually get my 'dream job' where I am now - still in the Fire Service but at a higher level. This was done by MYSELF - going to school, getting the certifications etc....not by whining and complaining to anyone.....

    Leave a comment:


  • RFDACM02
    replied
    Originally posted by FFFRED View Post
    Excellent article.

    The only question is " Is the applicant the best person for this position?" Male or female is irrelevant. Given the numbers of female applicants, naturally there will be fewer hired, of course this also means more males fail to be hired than females. I'm sure FDNY and almost any FD nationwide has turned away a hundred times as many males as females. No one can disguise the general physical differences between men and women and their effects on physically demanding careers.

    Leave a comment:


  • FFFRED
    replied
    What the NY Jets Can Do That the FDNY Cannot

    FTM-PTB

    Leave a comment:


  • WD6956
    replied
    I personally have no issue with any coworker who can do the job, period. Age, race, sex, religious preference, whatever. We all bleed to the same color blood. All i care about is that you up to the challenge because i don't want to be in a burning building with someone who i cannot depend on to get me or anybody else out because they lack the physical or mental strength.

    Firefighting is a very physically demanding job. Not just pulling hose, pulling cielings, climbing ladders, lifting, etc. But just the act of walking when your weighed down with 100+ pounds of gear. It is not something everyone can do. And i know plenty of MEN who are in poor shape. So the idea that women as a whole cannot do it and men can is nonsense. Many people say "Firefighting is a mans job", well, i would be happy to show you plenty of MEN who cannot do it well.

    If a woman can meet the same physical requirements of the job as a man, i am happy to have her with me. I know some TOUGH women who would put men to shame. To label ANY woman as being weaker then a man is ignorant. But I do not believe in a seperate, easier physical for women because it makes no sense. Hose does not get lighter, SCBA's do not get lighter and fire does not burn cooler when a woman is doing it. So why should the standards be less? There is currently grumblings with a womans group in the FDNY about a lawsuit:

    http://www.firefightingnews.com/arti...rticleID=76399

    But once again, the group is complaining that the number of women is so low, but how many actually apply?. I am from NY and was born in the Bronx. I cannot think of one girl i grew up with who ever wanted to be a Firefighter let alone one in NYC.

    This quote makes me irate:

    "The group also cautioned the judge that if the new requirements put a greater emphasis on strength, more women will be excluded from joining the department"

    WHAT??? You want to be treated as equals and be able to be firefighters but want lower standards? Make up your mind. You will never be equal if you are held to a lower standard. And how is that safe? If there physical requirements are lower, that is dangerous. Again, things are not suddenly lighter and easier if your a female.

    Ill say it again, i have no problem at all with women in the fire service. But there should be no double standard. Male or female, you need to meet the same standards. Unless you can convince me that the job is somehow easier for females and therefore they do not need to be able to lift the same amount of weight.

    Leave a comment:


  • tree68
    replied
    We've had good, and we've had bad. The same can be said about the males. The first two FFII's in the department were female.

    A neighboring department had the first female chief in the state, years ago. She did just fine.

    I think as a whole, we're mostly past the "something to prove" era, and well into the ladies being part of the team.

    Leave a comment:


  • hwoods
    replied
    Well..........

    Our County has 2 Female Chiefs among our 37 VFDs. I've known both for some years now, they are both Very Competent Chiefs. There are women thru the Ranks of both Volunteer and Career segments of our operation. At my station, currently about 24 out of 91 Members are Female. One is in a Line Position, and three are Administrative Officers. Four of the Thirteen Officers of our County Volunteer Fire/Rescue Association are Women, and there is one Woman among the Nine County Fire Commissioners. The highest Ranking female in the Career Service is a Deputy Chief. There are Two Majors, 5 Battalion Chiefs, and a sizeable number of Captains and Lts. as Well...... We don't have any Problems with this, and most are quite Competent...........

    Leave a comment:

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