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  • DeputyChiefGonzo
    replied
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You're so silly.

    We've always driven this way and never had cameras, so why so we need them now? (sic)

    The fact is there should be a camera in every responding apparatus in the country. Elements of the the fire service has, and continues to demonstrate tremndous irresponsibility in the way we operate our vehicle. Excessive speed. Blowing red lights. Blowing stop signs. And a host of other driving issues have all resulted in serious accidents, firefighter deaths and injuries and civilian deaths and injuries caused by our irresponsibility and our perception that the emergency itself (which is actually more often than not, not the case) and the need to "get there now" has overidden our responsbility to our members and the public to keep them safe while we respond.

    There is absolutly no arguement in the world, including those thrown out by those unabashidly pro-labor and pro-union that can make a dent in the need for these camera in every response vehicle.
    Do you have them in YOUR rigs?

    Leave a comment:


  • JMac73
    replied
    How many apparatus wreck every year? Just wondering.

    Leave a comment:


  • FireMedic049
    replied
    Originally posted by Captain Easyrider View Post
    Same here, but try and sell that to the new breed technology crowd! Lets just use cameras, officers are now off the hook.(sarcasm)
    PEACE
    Actually, the officers would be further on the hook with the cameras than they would be without them. Without the cameras, if the apparatus driver did something like take a turn too fast, but not crash and no complaint is made, then there would be no immediate accountability for the officer whether he chewed out the driver back at the station or did nothing since nobody would likely "review" the incident.

    However, if same situation occurred and it set off the drivecam, then now there is documentation of what happened and the officer can't "hide" or "ignore" the incident because someone will likely review the tape and be looking to see what action the officer took.

    Leave a comment:


  • hwoods
    replied
    Nope............

    I'm not buying the "Mounted on the Windshield is Illegal" part, regardless of what state you're in........... For one thing, the States themselves mount stuff on Windshields. EZ-Pass Toll Counters for one thing. Residential Parking Stickers, State auto inspection Stickers, And The Biggie, the Federally Mandated Interior Rear View Mirror. Then there's the Window mounted Lights used in unmarked Public Safety Vehicles. Federal Motor Vehicle Standards outrank State laws.......

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Easyrider
    replied
    Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Oh my Achin azz! We don't have cameras in ANY of our vehicles and we don't have ANY troubles with these issues. PROBABLY because a CHIEF (or COMPETENT Fire officer) goes on every run and sets the pace for the run. T.C.
    Same here, but try and sell that to the new breed technology crowd! Lets just use cameras, officers are now off the hook.(sarcasm)
    PEACE

    Leave a comment:


  • Catch22
    replied
    Originally posted by why View Post
    I didn't see data recorders did you?
    In the interest of full disclosure, how about the "rest of the story." That being the statutes regarding exemptions for emergency vehicles. The statute you posted is all fine and good (even if it's a stretch) for POV's, but most states have numerous exemptions for emergency vehicles.

    So what's the real problem here? Your driver's vision's obstructed or you're PO'd that the glory days of driving like whackers are over?

    Leave a comment:


  • Rescue101
    replied
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You're so silly.

    We've always driven this way and never had cameras, so why so we need them now? (sic)

    The fact is there should be a camera in every responding apparatus in the country. Elements of the the fire service has, and continues to demonstrate tremndous irresponsibility in the way we operate our vehicle. Excessive speed. Blowing red lights. Blowing stop signs. And a host of other driving issues have all resulted in serious accidents, firefighter deaths and injuries and civilian deaths and injuries caused by our irresponsibility and our perception that the emergency itself (which is actually more often than not, not the case) and the need to "get there now" has overidden our responsbility to our members and the public to keep them safe while we respond.

    There is absolutly no arguement in the world, including those thrown out by those unabashidly pro-labor and pro-union that can make a dent in the need for these camera in every response vehicle.
    Oh my Achin azz! We don't have cameras in ANY of our vehicles and we don't have ANY troubles with these issues. PROBABLY because a CHIEF (or COMPETENT Fire officer) goes on every run and sets the pace for the run. T.C.

    Leave a comment:


  • LVFD301
    replied
    Originally posted by why View Post
    I have not heard one agrument the state you as a manager can break the law.
    I have yet to see you answer my question.

    So you are saying that if the cameras are simply remounted so they are not on the windshield your union will accept them with open arms?

    Leave a comment:


  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Originally posted by FDAIC485 View Post
    Has anyone brought up the fact that operating without "due regard", which the cameras are trying to prevent, is also illegal?

    You're so silly.

    We've always driven this way and never had cameras, so why so we need them now? (sic)

    The fact is there should be a camera in every responding apparatus in the country. Elements of the the fire service has, and continues to demonstrate tremndous irresponsibility in the way we operate our vehicle. Excessive speed. Blowing red lights. Blowing stop signs. And a host of other driving issues have all resulted in serious accidents, firefighter deaths and injuries and civilian deaths and injuries caused by our irresponsibility and our perception that the emergency itself (which is actually more often than not, not the case) and the need to "get there now" has overidden our responsbility to our members and the public to keep them safe while we respond.

    There is absolutly no arguement in the world, including those thrown out by those unabashidly pro-labor and pro-union that can make a dent in the need for these camera in every response vehicle.

    Leave a comment:


  • FDAIC485
    replied
    Has anyone brought up the fact that operating without "due regard", which the cameras are trying to prevent, is also illegal?

    Leave a comment:


  • voyager9
    replied
    Originally posted by why View Post
    I have not heard one agrument the state you as a manager can break the law.
    Not to nitpick, but I have also not heard you answer the questions above.

    Let me quote an example:
    Originally posted by LVFD301 View Post
    So you are saying that if the cameras are simply remounted so they are not on the windshield your union will accept them with open arms?
    I think that you're fighting this system using a very weak argument. Arguments that the system shouldn't be used because of where the camera is mounted do not outweigh the benefit of the system as a whole from a public perspective. They also do nothing to protect you or your men from potential abuses in the system.

    Leave a comment:


  • why
    replied
    Florida Statute 316.2952

    I have not heard one agrument the state you as a manager can break the law.

    Leaders in any organization don't need to be lawyers but they should be able to read and understand contracts, SOP's, and some basic law. It is why positions in management need at least a four year degree and others require a master's. Remember the camera is posted on the windshield not in the cab. Quick note, management doesn't have cameras in their vehicles but is mounted in other passenger vehicles in the dept. Oh yea, btw they are mounted inside the ambulances. Where private citizens and patients are located. Again against the law unless waivers are signed in the State of Florida.

    316.2952Windshields; requirements; restrictions.
    (1)A windshield in a fixed and upright position, which windshield is equipped with safety glazing as required by federal safety-glazing material standards, is required on every motor vehicle which is operated on the public highways, roads, and streets, except on a motorcycle or implement of husbandry.

    (2)A person shall not operate any motor vehicle on any public highway, road, or street with any sign, sunscreening material, product, or covering attached to, or located in or upon, the windshield, except the following:

    (a)A certificate or other paper required to be displayed by law.

    (b)Sunscreening material along a strip at the top of the windshield, so long as such material is transparent and does not encroach upon the driver’s direct forward viewing area as more particularly described and defined in Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards No. 205 as the AS/1 portion of the windshield.

    (c)A device, issued by a governmental entity as defined in s. 334.03, or its designee, for the purpose of electronic toll payments.
    (d)A global positioning system device or similar satellite receiver device which uses the global positioning system operated pursuant to 10 U.S.C. s. 2281 for the purpose of obtaining navigation or routing information while the motor vehicle is being operated.(3)The windshield on every motor vehicle shall be equipped with a device for cleaning rain, snow, or other moisture from the windshield, which device shall be constructed as to be controlled or operated by the driver of the vehicle.

    (4)Every windshield wiper upon a motor vehicle shall be maintained in good working order.

    (5)Grove equipment, including “goats,” “highlift-goats,” grove chemical supply tanks, fertilizer distributors, fruit-loading equipment, and electric-powered vehicles regulated under the provisions of s. 316.267, are exempt from the requirements of this section. However, such electric-powered vehicles shall have a windscreen approved by the department sufficient to give protection from wind, rain, or insects, and such windscreen shall be in place whenever the vehicle is operated on the public roads and highways.

    (6)A former military vehicle is exempt from the requirements of this section if the department determines that the exemption is necessary to maintain the vehicle’s accurate military design and markings. However, whenever the vehicle is operating on the public roads and highways, the operator and passengers must wear eye-protective devices approved by the department. For purposes of this subsection, “former military vehicle” means a vehicle, including a trailer, regardless of the vehicle’s size, weight, or year of manufacture, that was manufactured for use in any country’s military forces and is maintained to represent its military design and markings accurately.

    (7)A violation of this section is a noncriminal traffic infraction, punishable as a nonmoving violation as provided in chapter 318.


    I didn't see data recorders did you?

    Leave a comment:


  • LVFD301
    replied
    Originally posted by why View Post
    Some jurisdictions have adopted, or may in the future adopt, laws that prohibit objects from being mounted on a vehicle’s windshield. For example, California, Minnesota, New Jersey and Florida currently
    prohibit or limit the mounting of objects, including DriveCam event recorders, on windshields. You are responsible for complying with any such laws, and DriveCam does not accept responsibility for your failure
    to do so. If you plan to operate your vehicle in a jurisdiction where windshield mounting is prohibited, contact DriveCam for assistance with any issues related to how or where VERs should be mounted.

    Hope this helps anyone who was misguided in what the intentions where....
    So you are saying that if the cameras are simply remounted so they are not on the windshield your union will accept them with open arms?

    Leave a comment:


  • voyager9
    replied
    How would how a camera/sensor is mounted limit your Administration's ability to abuse the system? Seems like a weak argument to me.

    The camera system is an engineering control on driving characteristics. It is going to be a hard to fight their use given the cost of the apparatus, risk to the public when abused, and history. If the union tries to fight their use in totality they're going to loose the PR battle. Regardless of legitimate concerns of abuse by the Adminsitration.

    In areas where there is a concern of administration abuse the Union should push for administrative controls to limit that abuse or at least protect the men should it occur. There are small things that could be fought for.. keeping the Company Officer in charge of enforcement, removing/limiting in-cab audio recording..etc. The Union could push for these adaptations while still embracing the system to "protect the public".

    Leave a comment:


  • islandfire03
    replied
    Originally posted by Captain Easyrider View Post
    Let me fill you in on the gray areas my friend. We had Sat tracking put on our apparatus fleet, under the theory that they could dispatch the nearest unit and change running assignments while units were in service on the road. Sounds plausible right. Wrong it was never used for that purpose.
    How do I know you ask, I was the first to be brought into HQ for being out of our city while on duty. Sounds bad right.
    Well when I was pulled int HQ, I of course did 3 things, 2 of which they expected, the third made them leary. First I invoked my Wiengarten rights which brought in my union rep. second I notified my B/C who in turn notified my D/C they both responded. The third was I requested a blank copy of charge sheets.
    When the kangaroo council started I got up before one question was even asked of me, and asked the kangaroo who started this how he would get to a certain street with out going out of the city. Of course he gave an eloquent set of directions which were right on if the street wasn't a one way and the only legal way was to use an out of city street . I then pointed out that if the city wished for us to go the wrong way on a one way that I would happily comply when it was put in writing. I then proceded to show the brass in the Ivory Tower as we call it that there close to 100 streets city wide that have the same scenario. Needless no charges were brought against me and city policy regarding the sat. system was changed
    Now you may be asking what about the blank charge sheets, While waiting I filled them out for the kangaroo who jumped the chain of command by putting my Trk. Co. out of service with out notifying My D/C. ( we latter dropped them and he is now in a dark corner somewhere)

    So Island unless you know the gray areas that we deal with in our individual Departments you really can't make blanket statements like that.
    PEACE
    Cap: It's a shame that you have to work in a place where you feel the need to hide behind your stewards skirts instead of being able to sit down man to man and have a normal conversation with your supervisors. In most places just a simple explanation of why there are no legal ways to get from point "A" to point "B" is all that would be needed. Your aggression towards management is why they feel they have to treat you like problem stepchildren.
    The confrontational attitude that has been crafted and developed in many bargaining units is not in the best interest of the employer or the employees. Having to threaten legal actions over day to day operational business is ridiculous.

    This is getting away from the original question of why should we as FF's be exempt from following safe and prudent operation of motor vehicles? Why does having a dashcam affect your constitutional rights?
    Blowing through stop signs and intersections kills far too many brothers and sisters every single year.
    Apparatus crashes that were preventable KILL far too many every year. Unsafe speed and driver inattention cause dozens of apparatus crashes every single year.

    Leave a comment:

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