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  • #61
    What has been overlooked in this thread is the question not of installing cameras or not but exactly what they are to be used for. All too often this is the sort of thing that becomes a tool for selective discipline rather than a tool for training and/or corrective action.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
    sigpic
    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
      What has been overlooked in this thread is the question not of installing cameras or not but exactly what they are to be used for. All too often this is the sort of thing that becomes a tool for selective discipline rather than a tool for training and/or corrective action.
      Thank you. You guys would really have to spend some time in this dept to know what kind of issues we have had with discipline issues. Plus any one who doesnt mind having your every move on camera and under the microscope, come on down and get you a n application.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by JMac73 View Post
        Thank you. You guys would really have to spend some time in this dept to know what kind of issues we have had with discipline issues. Plus any one who doesnt mind having your every move on camera and under the microscope, come on down and get you a n application.
        You are driving a 20-25 ton vehicle often at speeds beyond the posted limit with a 3-4 man crew.

        I would hope that every move while driving that vehicle is under the microscope.

        I would love to see them in my department. We have several drivers, some of them officers, that believe "getting there" is more important than the 10 MPH over the posted speed limit SOP.

        I would have no problem seeing them used for disciplinary purposes.
        Train to fight the fires you fight.

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        • #64
          I would have no problem seeing them used for disciplinary purposes.[/QUOTE]

          I was called out one time on one of these for having a T-shirt on instead of a polo shirt. Great use of resources, huh,?

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          • #65
            Originally posted by JMac73 View Post
            Great use of resources, huh,?
            One sure way of recognizing small minded, insecure "managers" is their notion that every new piece of technology, every SOP, and every other resource should be purposed exclusively with finding new and innovative means of handing out punishment rather than trying to use them as tools to improve service delivery.
            "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
            sigpic
            The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by JMac73 View Post
              I was called out one time on one of these for having a T-shirt on instead of a polo shirt. Great use of resources, huh,?
              And what would the difference have been if a chief driving down the street would have seen you? Or if Joe citizen knew that you were supposed to be in a polo and called it in?

              Pretty simple solution- don't violate policy.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
                One sure way of recognizing small minded, insecure "managers" is their notion that every new piece of technology, every SOP, and every other resource should be purposed exclusively with finding new and innovative means of handing out punishment rather than trying to use them as tools to improve service delivery.
                Who said anyone handed out punishment? He got "called out" for not being in the appropriate uniform. Unless the definition of "called out" is different, he simply had a ranking officer point it out and gave him a few words about it.

                We're in a job that's in view of the public. Policy violations can also be in the view of the public. Do you suppose there's ever been a photo on the cover of Firehouse, the local newspaper, or anywhere else that's ended up with guys being caught violating policy?

                Now, as a manager/supervisor, if you're reviewing pictures, videos, or what have you, what are you supposed to do? Ignore the infraction or bring it up? Ignore it and the next guy that violates that policy has grounds to scream that you're harrassing him or discriminating against him because you had photographic evidence of someone violating the same policy and no reprecussions occurred.

                We are our own worst enemies...

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by JMac73 View Post
                  I would have no problem seeing them used for disciplinary purposes.

                  I was called out one time on one of these for having a T-shirt on instead of a polo shirt. Great use of resources, huh,?
                  I can certainly understand the apprehension to the cameras if management is going to be using them in this fashion. If this is concern, then that needs to be clearly communicated in the objection. Without doing so, all objecting to them does is say that the employees are worried about be caught operating the apparatus in a manor that they know they shouldn't be.


                  Would it be that difficult to negotiate the scope of their usage? Limit their usage for disciplinary reasons to actions directly related to the operation of the apparatus (like speeding and running red lights) and not stuff like wearing the wrong uniform shirt.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Whocares View Post
                    The firehouse belongs to the city too, so I suppose you would have no problem with them putting cameras and mic's in the kitchen, right? Of course you wouldn't because you are not paranoid and never, ever say or do anything inappropriate, right? Put the "Kitchen Cam" online and let civilians watch it too!
                    Employees in a number of places (particularly retail stores) do work constantly while on camera. The primary purpose of those cameras is "loss protection" regarding theft by customers rather than by the employees. So there clearly is a legitimate business purpose for their usage in that setting.

                    I would have a problem with putting up surveillance cameras, etc. inside the firehouse because there is clearly no legitimate business reason to need them in general inside the station. The only real purpose for doing so would be to "spy on" the employees for disciplinary type reasons.

                    I would have no problem with a dashcam in my fire truck because I can see a valid, legitimate purpose for its usage. I've also been working on ambulances with dashcams for atleast 4 years now and have seen not "downside" to having them if you are operating the vehicle appropriately.

                    As someone pointed out, we aren't injuring or killing ourselves and civilians with our conduct inside the fire station anywhere close to what is happening with our apparatus on the streets.

                    Bottomline, if you are doing what you are supposed to be doing, then the cameras are shouldn't matter.

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                    • #70
                      And...........

                      To refer back to my post on Page 2: I failed to mention that I am not aware of "Management", including myself, reviewing a Dashcam Tape to see what Shirts the Crew was wearing or to hear remarks about someone's Mother-in-law. The purpose of the Cameras is to Protect Our Own People as much as possible.......
                      Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
                      In memory of
                      Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
                      Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

                      IACOJ Budget Analyst

                      I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

                      www.gdvfd18.com

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Again,

                        I'm amazed at how cavalier everyone is about big brother. (except for Mr. Whocares who seems to often be on the same wavelength as me on many issues, except pike axes! LOL)

                        And also I'm surprised at how many amatures are out there.

                        Give your Department what they CLAIM they want the cameras for...."Safe responses" and to protect you.

                        What do I mean?

                        Lets just say, a department I'm familiar with placed cameras in just less than a dozen companies a few years back. They proposed a 90 day pilot program and after this time had elapsed, the program would go citywide in ALL appratus. The Fire Commish at the time was quoted as promising that these cameras were comming because they wanted to reduce accidents.

                        Well oddly enough the pilot program was CANCELED after just more than 3 weeks! Why you ask?

                        Well as it turns out the Fire Department and the City were more concerned with the fact that response times for those companies with cameras and those of the companies that shared quarters with them or responded in with them frequently INCREASED by over 1 min!

                        The men driving the rigs knowing a camera was closely monitoring their every movement, defered to the side of caution on every response. Don't cross the double yellow, too dangerous, come to a full and complete stop at every red light or stop sign. (You can imagine what this would do to the fuel bill and maintenance for brakes at the shops if something like this happened citywide)

                        In lieu of making a resonable judgement on how to proceed to a box based on expereince and conditions, they focused on what the department CLAIMED was the priority...reducing accidents.

                        Therefore when response times increased by over 1 min. It was proven that the priority wasn't safety, but hooking guys up they made misjudgements in their attempt to respond in a timely manner as was encouraged by the Chiefs who bore the brunt of the wrath from the upper command.

                        You want the cameras gone....give them "safe responses" protect yourself, and your family legally and financially and when response times increase 25% you can see for yourself how important your department considers the need to have you on film 24/7.

                        FTM-PTB

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by FFFRED View Post
                          Again,

                          I'm amazed at how cavalier everyone is about big brother. (except for Mr. Whocares who seems to often be on the same wavelength as me on many issues, except pike axes! LOL)

                          And also I'm surprised at how many amatures are out there.
                          What do you mean by "amatures" in regards to this discussion?


                          You want the cameras gone....give them "safe responses" protect yourself, and your family legally and financially and when response times increase 25% you can see for yourself how important your department considers the need to have you on film 24/7.

                          FTM-PTB
                          Maybe we aren't talking about exactly the same thing, but the dashcams that I'm familiar with record anytime the vehicle is on, but the only data available for review and download are short clips of about 15 seconds before and 15 seconds after an event (like a collision or some other "severe" movement of the vehicle) or a manual activation. The aren't like a survaillence camera that constantly records activity, all of which can later be reviewed.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by FFFRED View Post
                            And also I'm surprised at how many amatures are out there.
                            Care to elaborate?

                            Not all of us work in a management vs. operational personnel evrionment. In this neck of the woods, the sky really ISN'T falling.
                            Career Fire Captain
                            Volunteer Chief Officer


                            Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              There are times I wish the camera was there... think of the revenue that could be generated by ticketing the morons that cut out in front of us, refuse to pull over to the right, pull to the left and such... if only that funding could go right into the FD's budget... we would have enough to completely staff the FD, add companies and have a surplus to buy equipment.

                              The entire driver's education program and licensing system for all drivers needs to be overhauled. Actually teach people to drive... skid control, accident avoidance, defensive driving, and knowing the limitation of what their vehicle is capable of...

                              Radio transmissions are taped.... keep that in mind.

                              Company Officers have to have the stones to pull someone out of the driver's seat if they screw up... you are their leader, not their buddy buddy.

                              FD's have to train their personnel in emergency vehicle ops, accident avoidance, skid control and using ABS braking systems... driving a pumper, ladder or rescue is not like driving the family around in a minivan.

                              ECC's, LCC's RCC's and ambo squads need to realize that they are responsible for the lives of their personnel to and from the firehouse on a call.

                              Cities and towns should require that all personnel have a CDL... and pay for the licensure just as they would for any other mandatory training session and or professional license. ( fat chance of that happening....)

                              Cities and town cannot defer maintenance.. as a matter of fact, I think all emergency vehicles should be inspected quarterly... the politicians will whine, complain, gripe, kvetch and bitch about the costs, but then, they aren't the ones driving and riding in the rigs, either.
                              ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                              Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by JMac73 View Post
                                I was called out one time on one of these for having a T-shirt on instead of a polo shirt. Great use of resources, huh,?
                                We used to have a senior command chief hang out at the hospital after 9 pm to gig the guys who were not wearing their uniform shirts while on the ambulance.

                                JMac73, I appreciate the issue with inconsistent and "gotcha" dings, but were they reviewing the tape as part of a near-miss (alert) or after accident review?

                                Comment

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