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  • #46
    Originally posted by Whocares View Post
    And cameras do nothing to stop the rig from driving crazy - officers and drivers do.
    I do not know of a study targeted at in "cab cameras", but a close comparison would be traffic light cameras. There are many studies that show a decrease in accidents at intersections with the enforcement tool in place. I see no reason to believe that the same would not work with "in cab cameras". Whether you wish to believe it or not people act differently when they believe they are being watched, also the trucks do not belong to the fire fighters they belong to the district. We are not talking about 24\7 surveillance, we are talking about recording the event and what immediately happens afterward. While it does not record video every passenger vehicle record crash data when an airbag is tripped. This would not be that much different.
    It was asked "I'm a IAFF member, so fell free to explain why in the world a camera requires additional compensation." I did not see a reasonable answer to the question. Why do you need to be compensated?
    FYI, I too am a 30+ yr IAFF member.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Catch22 View Post
      That's assuming the officers and driver's are doing their job, which is why the cameras are there. At the same time, they can be used to prove they were doing their job. They can also be used for training purposes.

      Our new aerial has these cameras, on forward-facing, one rear-facing, and one down each side. No one has a problem with them because they do their jobs. Of course, we have the black box that's required by NFPA now, so the cameras are just an addition.

      As far as putting the cameras in the stations, what's the problem? We have cameras on our computers in the dayroom now. While an employee has certain rights, they are still serving at the leisure of the employer. Our HQ (which we share with the PD, dispatch, and courts as a public safety building) has any number of security cameras throughout it, and it's not been a problem.

      I goes back to the heart of the matter- do your freaking job and be a professional. The firehouse, the apparatus, and the fireground are a workplace, not a playground. If you don't want to follow the rules, find a job with different rules that fit your needs.
      Why should I find a new job because I don't think cameras in rigs or houses are a good thing? If you are fine with your work conditions, then that's all that really matters, but don't expect me to be! Every day I am happier and happier with where I work. As far as I can tell, not only is the grass not greener - there isn't any grass at all!
      Just a typical moronic, childish, idiotic munchkin.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Acklan View Post
        I do not know of a study targeted at in "cab cameras", but a close comparison would be traffic light cameras. There are many studies that show a decrease in accidents at intersections with the enforcement tool in place. I see no reason to believe that the same would not work with "in cab cameras". Whether you wish to believe it or not people act differently when they believe they are being watched, also the trucks do not belong to the fire fighters they belong to the district. We are not talking about 24\7 surveillance, we are talking about recording the event and what immediately happens afterward. While it does not record video every passenger vehicle record crash data when an airbag is tripped. This would not be that much different.
        It was asked "I'm a IAFF member, so fell free to explain why in the world a camera requires additional compensation." I did not see a reasonable answer to the question. Why do you need to be compensated?
        FYI, I too am a 30+ yr IAFF member.
        In the interest of full disclosure, the city actually put them in 5 or 6 rigs in my department as a trial. They lasted about a month before they were removed. I know the guys hated them, but I suspect that the city removed them for their own purposes. I don't see the corporation council being happy with cameras running on us either. Whatever the case, they are gone!
        Just a typical moronic, childish, idiotic munchkin.

        Comment


        • #49
          Two points:

          REDUCES FALSE CLAIMS AND IMPROVES POOR DRIVER PERFORMANCE

          As Harve pointed out, the dash-cam style units have protected many department drivers, reducing the "he-said-she-said" issues surrounding speed, direction and traffic light status.

          When introduced, 5% to 30% of the drivers get dinged for dangerous or sloppy driving. Because the feedback is directed back to the driver, the number of alerts goes down ... along with the amount of departmental and civilian vehicle related damage claims.

          That is why my department, about the size of Orange County, installed them.

          MANAGEMENT RESPONSE TO INCIDENTS OF POOR DRIVER PERFORMANCE

          Unless you are working in the same department with MassFireGuy, you do not know the political environment or the labor-management conditions.

          He may be from the same metro department that got extra pay for random drug tests in the current contract.

          Mike

          Comment


          • #50
            Another union member here. I have to wonder if some of the members know how paranoid they're coming across as? If our guys aren't screwing up in the first place, why should it matter if we get cameras in the rigs or not?

            Yes, the officers should be doing their jobs, but from the original article:
            "Red light, Tony, red light! Jesus Christ, Tony!" a firefighter is heard saying in the video.

            Even his fellow firefighters were scared, as an Orange County firefighter blew a red light at a busy intersection going more than 40 miles an hour.

            Another firefighter was caught going more than 80 mph in the middle of the night as he approached a red light.


            Are the officers doing their jobs? Have the company officers let their expectations of driving be known? Do the CO's understand their responsibility in this?

            Put the cameras up in the kitchen, who cares. It's not my damn home, it's my workplace. I'm not sure what "rights" in the kitchen my local is supposed to protect me from.
            Career Fire Captain
            Volunteer Chief Officer


            Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

            Comment


            • #51
              I don't have a problem with them at all. If NFPA has mandated a black box, then go ahead and mandate a camera. Have the eyes with the ears
              Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by MikeWard View Post
                Unless you are working in the same department with MassFireGuy, you do not know the political environment or the labor-management conditions.

                He may be from the same metro department that got extra pay for random drug tests in the current contract.
                Another point that baffles me, but that's for another thread.
                Career Fire Captain
                Volunteer Chief Officer


                Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Whocares View Post
                  Why should I find a new job because I don't think cameras in rigs or houses are a good thing? If you are fine with your work conditions, then that's all that really matters, but don't expect me to be! Every day I am happier and happier with where I work. As far as I can tell, not only is the grass not greener - there isn't any grass at all!
                  If you find what your employer does as so unbearable that you feel the need that you should be paid extra, there's two avenues to take. Either suck it up and accept it, or find another job. There is nothing that entitles you to be a firefighter, let alone to work where you do.

                  That sense of entitlement is something that irritates the hell out of me with some guys. There's a long line of men and women that would love to work as a firefighter under any conditions, why should your employer be forced to do what you want as an employee? Last I knew, the employer was the boss, not the employee.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
                    Another union member here. I have to wonder if some of the members know how paranoid they're coming across as? If our guys aren't screwing up in the first place, why should it matter if we get cameras in the rigs or not?

                    Yes, the officers should be doing their jobs, but from the original article:
                    [I]"Red light, Tony, red light! Jesus Christ, Tony!" a firefighter is heard saying in the video.

                    Even his fellow firefighters were scared, as an Orange County firefighter blew a red light at a busy intersection going more than 40 miles an hour.
                    My drivers have been warned that if there is a issue with blowing through a intersection they will be ordered to stop the apparatus, exit the cab and be replaced with a firefighter from the rear until further notice.
                    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by MassFireGuy View Post
                      Seat Belts are a law. Different story entirely.
                      Pass devices? Did you hold out for extra compensation for them?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Catch22 View Post
                        If you find what your employer does as so unbearable that you feel the need that you should be paid extra, there's two avenues to take. Either suck it up and accept it, or find another job. There is nothing that entitles you to be a firefighter, let alone to work where you do.

                        That sense of entitlement is something that irritates the hell out of me with some guys. There's a long line of men and women that would love to work as a firefighter under any conditions, why should your employer be forced to do what you want as an employee? Last I knew, the employer was the boss, not the employee.
                        I guess you missed the "happier and happier" part. I love where I work and wouldn't go anywhere else for twice the money. But part of that satisfaction comes from the work environment. Signifgantly change that, and you signifigantly change the level of employee satisfaction.

                        That said, the employer may be the boss, but they have to negotiate with us, too. They cannot randomly do whatever they want. By your logic, they are the boss so the city could just cut manning, pay, and close companies whenever they want.
                        Last edited by Whocares; 10-17-2010, 12:59 PM.
                        Just a typical moronic, childish, idiotic munchkin.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Catch22 View Post
                          That sense of entitlement is something that irritates the hell out of me with some guys. There's a long line of men and women that would love to work as a firefighter under any conditions, why should your employer be forced to do what you want as an employee? Last I knew, the employer was the boss, not the employee.
                          So you don't think the city should negotiate with us because we belong to a desireable profession? Just bend over and take anything because others want to be firefighters? I guess we just look at things differently. Agree to disagree...
                          Just a typical moronic, childish, idiotic munchkin.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Whocares View Post
                            I guess you missed the "happier and happier" part. I love where I work and wouldn't go anywhere else for twice the money. But part of that satisfaction comes from the work environment. Signifgantly change that, and you signifigantly change the level of employee satisfaction.
                            You argued my point, so I reinforced it. Simple as that.

                            That said, the employer may be the boss, but they have to negotiate with us, too. They cannot randomly do whatever they want. By your logic, they are the boss so the city could just cut manning, pay, and close companies whenever they want.
                            They have to negotiate with you, but that rule doesn't apply in all 50 states in this union. In many places, the employer can do exactly that.

                            The caveat is that the employer consists of people who are elected by the citizens we protect. They are elected to represent those citizens and act in their best interest. They in turn appoint/hire people to run the day-to-day operations.

                            As in any business, it may come to the point that it's time to reduce cost, be it manpower, equipment, or what have you. Those elected officials must do what they deem is in the best interest of the jurisdiction, but must also answer to their constituants.

                            Being in a right-to-work state, we have fought those battles and have done so by means of persuading the citizens we protect, not by forcing them into whatever we want. If you'll notice, Detroit is rapidly turning into a ghost town thanks to the car industry's unions, as are a number of other cities.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Whocares View Post
                              So you don't think the city should negotiate with us because we belong to a desireable profession? Just bend over and take anything because others want to be firefighters? I guess we just look at things differently. Agree to disagree...
                              That's not what I said. However, before going in and demanding extra pay because they put a camera on the rig or because they want you to take random drug tests like the rest of the country, it's a good thing to keep in mind.

                              Welcome to a free-market society.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Catch22 View Post
                                As in any business, it may come to the point that it's time to reduce cost, be it manpower, equipment, or what have you. Those elected officials must do what they deem is in the best interest of the jurisdiction, but must also answer to their constituants.
                                But here at least, these have to be negotiated and agreed to by both parties.

                                Being in a right-to-work state, we have fought those battles and have done so by means of persuading the citizens we protect, not by forcing them into whatever we want. If you'll notice, Detroit is rapidly turning into a ghost town thanks to the car industry's unions, as are a number of other cities.
                                We do it by good faith negotiations with the city. I like our system, and it sounds like you enjoy yours. We both have the best job in the world - mines just better!
                                Just a typical moronic, childish, idiotic munchkin.

                                Comment

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