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  • #16
    Originally posted by Tenderloin View Post
    The San Francisco Fire Department leaves their Aerial Truck Companies "in service" when they are hanging banners at Churches.

    That doesn't make any sense to me.

    I wrote to the San Jose, CA Chief of Department and this was his response:

    "We would put ourselves out of service. From the time of alarm, our goal is to have a response time of 5 minutes 90% of the time. With the aerial out of the bed and the ground jacks down we'd never make it. I believe it takes approximately 3 minutes to put everything back to normal.

    In the Fire Station we are to get out of the station in 60 seconds.
    If we make ourselves conditionally available (CAV, means you're out of service but can still respond) we are to respond within 3 minutes.
    If you cannot meet the criteria above, we put ourselves Not Available (NAV).
    If you need any further information please let me know."

    C.O.D.

    Anyone agree? Disagree?
    How long does it take to bed a Ladder and pick up jacks? Around here it CAN take you 20 minutes if you are in station to reach some incidents. Most Ladders WITH CREW can be retracted and picked up in UNDER three minutes. NOT a significant factor HERE. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 10-14-2010, 10:38 AM.

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    • #17
      We are "in-service, delayed response" and we don't leave our assigned district to do that type of stuff. We also employ a squad that is tasked with doing the initial truck work just to prevent any delays.
      And if you can't bed your ladder and be on the road in a few minutes, you had better start some driver training.
      My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
      "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
      George Mason
      Co-author of the Second Amendment
      during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
      Elevator Rescue Information

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Tenderloin View Post
        The San Francisco Fire Department leaves their Aerial Truck Companies "in service" when they are hanging banners at Churches.

        That doesn't make any sense to me.

        I wrote to the San Jose, CA Chief of Department and this was his response:

        "We would put ourselves out of service. From the time of alarm, our goal is to have a response time of 5 minutes 90% of the time. With the aerial out of the bed and the ground jacks down we'd never make it. I believe it takes approximately 3 minutes to put everything back to normal.

        In the Fire Station we are to get out of the station in 60 seconds.
        If we make ourselves conditionally available (CAV, means you're out of service but can still respond) we are to respond within 3 minutes.
        If you cannot meet the criteria above, we put ourselves Not Available (NAV).
        If you need any further information please let me know."

        C.O.D.

        Anyone agree? Disagree?

        How many more questions are you going to ask pertaining to the same subject?

        The truck can stay in service, available for calls of service.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Tenderloin View Post
          The San Francisco Fire Department leaves their Aerial Truck Companies "in service" when they are hanging banners at Churches.

          That doesn't make any sense to me.

          I wrote to the San Jose, CA Chief of Department and this was his response:

          "We would put ourselves out of service. From the time of alarm, our goal is to have a response time of 5 minutes 90% of the time. With the aerial out of the bed and the ground jacks down we'd never make it. I believe it takes approximately 3 minutes to put everything back to normal.

          In the Fire Station we are to get out of the station in 60 seconds.
          If we make ourselves conditionally available (CAV, means you're out of service but can still respond) we are to respond within 3 minutes.
          If you cannot meet the criteria above, we put ourselves Not Available (NAV).
          If you need any further information please let me know."

          C.O.D.

          Anyone agree? Disagree?



          Tenderloin, Are you a firefighter or someone with an axe to grind??

          Leave the fire department alone and let them do their job whatever it may be.

          Many departments do community services as helping install ropes on flag poles, hanging banners, positioning the rigs for parades with the American Flag flying from it.

          If you want to pick on someone, try your US Senator or US Representative, as they are the ones who aren't doing their jobs!
          Stay Safe and Well Out There....

          Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

          Comment


          • #20
            "In Service - Out of Service"

            Motive:
            As a retired FF and now living in San Francisco, I reacted negatively to the article below when it appeared in the paper. I don't care if the SFFD wants to help someone out. That what FD's are for.

            But I know that Church and it has overhead wires of telephone and electrical with accompaning poles. In the middle of the street are overhead wires for the electric trolleys to run. In other words, the aerial ladder is not in the middle of some field. Raising and retracting the ladder cannot be done at breakneck speed.

            San Francisco has 18 Truck Co. Two could arrive at the Church in 5 minutes.
            Since I would think it would take 5-7 minutes to bed the ladder (safely),
            to insure that seconds still count, it would have been better to dispatch the sure thing, another Truck Co., than T-14 who hopefully would be ready to go in 5-7 minutes.

            San Francisco has no category of "In Service delayed response." You're In or your OUT.

            I keep asking the question because those on this Board seem to agree Keep Truck Co in service - while COD's seem to think otherwise.
            Maybe there is no rule of thumb.

            This is the article: I'm only concerned about response times not use of equipment:

            "Fire alarm: Neighbors were chagrined to see a San Francisco Fire Department ladder truck and crew helping hang a "Taste of Greece Festival" banner from the front of a Geary Boulevard church the other day - and tying up traffic in the process.

            "Are we using city equipment and the right-of-way to benefit a church?"

            Well, Fire Department spokeswoman Lt. M. Talma tells us firefighters did lend a hand to hang the banner because "one of our members goes to that church."

            Talma said the truck was on duty at the time, and that the firefighters would have jumped into their gear and taken off had they been needed elsewhere.

            "We do community service all day long - every day," she said.

            Which, no doubt, is why everyone loves firefighters. "

            Comment


            • #21
              Well................

              Maybe this is the Answer you're looking for: We pretty much do as we see fit. After all, It's our Apparatus, Our District, and our People. No one knows any better what we could or couldn't do under the circumstances of the moment. Now, having said that, we always check with the Dispatchers to see what the status is of any surrounding Stations/apparatus. That way, we know what to expect, and how to avoid any "Holes" in Coverage......

              I'm also one who is wondering What the Story is behind your sudden arrival here, with a question and references that far exceed a "Newbie"'s usual Starting Posts. In short, your Question was too well researched, so just what is it you're up to???.......
              Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
              In memory of
              Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
              Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

              IACOJ Budget Analyst

              I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

              www.gdvfd18.com

              Comment


              • #22
                We can't win no matter what we do. If we refuse to participate/assist in public relations we're a-holes. If we do assist one group, we have to assist all groups or we're a-holes. If we assist anyone we're wasting public resources making us a-holes.

                I've seen a well executed and timely response from a public event draw cheers from the crowd. Look at it as your chance to shine (or look like fools if something goes wrong)
                My wise and profound comments and opinions are mine alone and are in no way associated with any other individual or group.

                Comment


                • #23
                  In Service Out of Service

                  HWoods In short, your Question was too well researched, so just what is it you're up to???.......

                  Ever have the feeling you are certain about something, only to find there are other opinions. I worked on a Truck Co many years. We use to go out of service if a headlight was being changed to get the best response times.
                  Yes, I have researched this. I'm continuing to research it here.
                  I like most people want to be right, am looking for support that I may not find and have to admit I'm wrong, once again.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Raising that stick for a community service IS TRAINING and should be handled as such. If you can't bed the stick in a couple of minutes you need more training.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by LVFD301 View Post
                      Raising that stick for a community service IS TRAINING and should be handled as such. If you can't bed the stick in a couple of minutes you need more training.
                      I Agree,
                      San Fran? 5-7 Minutes? MAYBE with the OLD hand crand/hand jack Ladder. DEFINE IN SERVICE. When does the clock kick in regarding this? To me If a vehicle can be responding within a three minute time frame it would be in service. To others,that is probably UN acceptable. Just wondering what is raising this as an issue. T.C.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        In service Out of service

                        Rescue 101: "To me If a vehicle can be responding within a three minute time frame it would be in service."

                        I absolutely agree with the above.

                        What I don't agree with is keeping an aerial in service if under the best results and conditions,
                        (after manuevering aerial under power lines between poles and avoiding MUNI overhead wires and aerial is then in bed) it would take 5 minutes.
                        San Francisco doesn't have its officers calling dispatch to find out what other companies are doing. That's for the computer to decide.
                        If an aerial truck company is "in service" the computer only thinks of it as immediately able to respond.
                        There were no dispatches while the Truck was busy with the banner.
                        All I'm saying is for those 20 minutes or so, best practices, for long term Public Safety, is to go "out of service."

                        Only my opinion.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Tenderloin View Post
                          Rescue 101: "To me If a vehicle can be responding within a three minute time frame it would be in service."

                          I absolutely agree with the above.

                          What I don't agree with is keeping an aerial in service if under the best results and conditions,
                          (after manuevering aerial under power lines between poles and avoiding MUNI overhead wires and aerial is then in bed) it would take 5 minutes.
                          San Francisco doesn't have its officers calling dispatch to find out what other companies are doing. That's for the computer to decide.
                          If an aerial truck company is "in service" the computer only thinks of it as immediately able to respond.
                          There were no dispatches while the Truck was busy with the banner.
                          All I'm saying is for those 20 minutes or so, best practices, for long term Public Safety, is to go "out of service."

                          Only my opinion.

                          You are entitled to your opinion and so are we, since you asked us for it.

                          Stay Safe and Well Out There....

                          Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Tenderloin View Post
                            We use to go out of service if a headlight was being changed to get the best response times.
                            That's nice if it's a luxury your department is afforded. For may of us, it isn't an option. It's certainly not an option for our department to take the truck out of service every time the stick is out of the bed.

                            I like most people want to be right, am looking for support that I may not find and have to admit I'm wrong, once again.
                            The only people in this situation who know if it's "right" or not are running the SFFD. Other departments only know what's "right" for them.
                            "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                            sigpic
                            The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Tenderloin View Post
                              If an aerial truck company is "in service" the computer only thinks of it as immediately able to respond.
                              What does SFFD's computer typically assign to an AFA? Assuming the first due truck is taken out of service, is the second due going to be any closer than the first would be under a slightly delayed repsonse? Response time varies all the time -- in service or out.

                              All I'm saying is for those 20 minutes or so, best practices, for long term Public Safety, is to go "out of service."
                              "Best practice" according to whom?

                              Only my opinion.
                              Which isn't synonymous with "best practice."
                              Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 10-14-2010, 05:01 PM. Reason: typo
                              "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                              sigpic
                              The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Tenderloin View Post
                                There were no dispatches while the Truck was busy with the banner.
                                All I'm saying is for those 20 minutes or so, best practices, for long term Public Safety, is to go "out of service."
                                Departments across the nation are arguing brownouts because they're delaying the fast arrival of the closest appropriate fire apparatus, be that engines, trucks, or the like. In your scenario, you're effectively doing a 20-minute brownout to hang a banner.

                                Dateline: San Francisco, next week: "San Francisco Fire Department officials today are defending their actions that the closest ladder truck to yesterday's fatal fire was allowed to be out of service to hang a banner at the local church. They state that they can't say for certain if the ladder truck could have made a difference when the two children died, however, they state that the 3 minutes that it would have taken to ready the vehicle to go back in service was too long. Ladder trucks are used to perform 'search and rescue' for people who might be trapped by flames and smoke. More on this at 11"

                                Sorry bro, I can't agree with you that the ladder should be OOS for this public service detail.
                                Career Fire Captain
                                Volunteer Chief Officer


                                Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

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