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  • #46
    Originally posted by MassFireGuy View Post
    So long as the city or town buys you safe appropriate gear, who cares if you upgrade with your clothing allowance.
    Originally posted by MassFireGuy View Post
    That great they let you do that. Who the hell wants to wear a salad bowl on their head.
    Why should they allow you, in a paramilitary organization, to vary from the prescribed uniform? It goes both ways and there is no absolute answer.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Originally posted by nyckftbl
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
      Why should they allow you, in a paramilitary organization, to vary from the prescribed uniform? It goes both ways and there is no absolute answer.
      If the upgraded gear meets or exceeds the standards of the provided gear, I dont see why it matters.

      Department buys salad bowls, we buy traditionals. Department buys rubber boots, we buy leather.
      Career Firefighter
      Volunteer Captain

      -Professional in Either Role-

      Originally posted by Rescue101
      I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by GTRider245 View Post
        If the upgraded gear meets or exceeds the standards of the provided gear, I dont see why it matters.

        Department buys salad bowls, we buy traditionals. Department buys rubber boots, we buy leather.
        It matters because you will no longer have a Uniform, you will just have a motley crew with gear. The uniform is part of leading a team, firefighting is a team effort in a paramilitary environment, thus we we have uniform uniforms. A uniform is supposed to be uniform with everyone else in the unit.
        Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
        -Big Russ

        Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

        Originally posted by nyckftbl
        LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by GTRider245 View Post
          If the upgraded gear meets or exceeds the standards of the provided gear, I dont see why it matters.

          Department buys salad bowls, we buy traditionals. Department buys rubber boots, we buy leather.
          Just curious, but since you guys buy your own boots and helmets...would you accept those items being removed from the department budget? After all, you are willing to buy your own.
          "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
            It matters because you will no longer have a Uniform, you will just have a motley crew with gear. The uniform is part of leading a team, firefighting is a team effort in a paramilitary environment, thus we we have uniform uniforms. A uniform is supposed to be uniform with everyone else in the unit.
            Dennis, your kidding right, uniform to lead what a joke. Its who is in the "uniform" that leads. GT has it right we buy what is authorized that meets or exceeds specs for various reasons, be it boots helmets or gloves. Hell most of the reasons are simply because fire departments must take the lowest bid which doesn't always equate to a better product!
            PEACE

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Captain Easyrider View Post
              Dennis, your kidding right, uniform to lead what a joke. Its who is in the "uniform" that leads. GT has it right we buy what is authorized that meets or exceeds specs for various reasons, be it boots helmets or gloves. Hell most of the reasons are simply because fire departments must take the lowest bid which doesn't always equate to a better product!
              PEACE
              I think you take your captainship too easy. A uniform is a key component in building unit cohesion. It can be used to build esprit de corps. If what you are issued does not achive the performance you need, the next round of purchaseing you should make sure that the needs of the unit are meet. When something as simple as helmets don't match, we end up looking like the silly Richard Scarry caricatures that my two year old loves. When the crap hits the fan, maybe appearances don't count, but in the day to day bread and butter events they do, and those things build us up to handle the crap hitting the fan events.
              Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
              -Big Russ

              Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

              Originally posted by nyckftbl
              LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
                I think you take your captainship too easy. A uniform is a key component in building unit cohesion. It can be used to build esprit de corps. If what you are issued does not achive the performance you need, the next round of purchaseing you should make sure that the needs of the unit are meet. When something as simple as helmets don't match, we end up looking like the silly Richard Scarry caricatures that my two year old loves. When the crap hits the fan, maybe appearances don't count, but in the day to day bread and butter events they do, and those things build us up to handle the crap hitting the fan events.
                Sir with all due respect you do not have clue on how to achieve unit cohesion if you think a uniform does it. You build a cohesive unit buy knowing your men, their strengths and weaknesses and building each one up to a point where you know that when the schit hits the fan a brother F/F is right there with you. I will take my merry band of mis-dressed over your esprit de corps every day just for that reason.
                Also you missed my point on low bid, it just doesn't work that way in the urban area I am from. If it works in your area kudos to you.
                PEACE

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
                  It matters because you will no longer have a Uniform, you will just have a motley crew with gear. The uniform is part of leading a team, firefighting is a team effort in a paramilitary environment, thus we we have uniform uniforms. A uniform is supposed to be uniform with everyone else in the unit.
                  There's a fundamental flaw in your thinking. You're assuming that buying some of your own equipment equates to buying without limitation. It's actually pretty easy to allow personnel to provide a "substitute" without losing the appearance of uniformity.

                  In my department, the only thing the City directly provides us is TOG pants & coats and a helmet. We provide everything else (via Uniform Allowance) PPE wise and station wear, etc. and several members are utilizing non-issued helmets (myself included).

                  We still maintain reasonable uniformity because what we buy has to comply with our mostly informal uniform policy. For example, there are probably 5 or 6 different model helmets in use currently and all of the personal helmets are either red or white (depending on your rank) and "match" what is issued. There are several brands/models of station pants in use, however they all have to be dark blue uniform pants.

                  I don't disagree with your basic point that the uniform is important component of being a team. There's just other important things too.

                  Just a thought to ponder regarding looking "uniform" and something I've encountered along the way. How uniform must uniform be? If the goal is for everybody to be wearing the same uniform and look alike, then if one person feels a little cold and puts on the approved uniform jacket or sweatshirt, then does everybody else have to also to maintain uniformity? Are we uniform enough if we are all wearing the same uniform shirt, but some are short sleeved and some long sleeved?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
                    I think you take your captainship too easy. A uniform is a key component in building unit cohesion. It can be used to build esprit de corps.
                    I have the oldest set of gear on my shift. It's seen more fire, is dirtier (in spite of being religiously washed every six months by our gear guy) is made of a different material, has larger lettering, and is from a different manufacturer than the guys on my shift who just got new duds last month. How does this detract anymore from our unit cohesion or esprit de corps than the fact that my issued salad bowl has never touched my head?

                    When we're in a non-emergent situation (inspections, meals, etc, etc), we're all dressed alike. When the turnouts get put on, we sort of look alike. I doubt that the fact that I have a 1010, my medic driver has a salad bowl, and the guy riding backwards is wearing an N5A has any reflection on my leadership or their esprit de corps.
                    Career Fire Captain
                    Volunteer Chief Officer


                    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Bones42 View Post
                      Just curious, but since you guys buy your own boots and helmets...would you accept those items being removed from the department budget? After all, you are willing to buy your own.
                      Wouldn't bother me since I haven't worn a department-issued lid since the day I graduated recruit school.
                      Career Fire Captain
                      Volunteer Chief Officer


                      Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by FireMedic049 View Post

                        How uniform must uniform be? If the goal is for everybody to be wearing the same uniform and look alike, then if one person feels a little cold and puts on the approved uniform jacket or sweatshirt, then does everybody else have to also to maintain uniformity? Are we uniform enough if we are all wearing the same uniform shirt, but some are short sleeved and some long sleeved?
                        Thank you, someone who understands the basic concept of uniforms. I can go one step further. In our uniform sop's we can wear shorts, and golf shirts that are spec'd out by department, we can also wear pants and golf shirt, and regular uniform shirt and shorts or pants and regular uniform shirt. so on a 1 and 4 crew only 2 guys may match.
                        PEACE

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
                          I have the oldest set of gear on my shift. It's seen more fire, is dirtier (in spite of being religiously washed every six months by our gear guy) is made of a different material, has larger lettering, and is from a different manufacturer than the guys on my shift who just got new duds last month. How does this detract anymore from our unit cohesion or esprit de corps than the fact that my issued salad bowl has never touched my head?

                          [/I].
                          Same here except the salad bowl is a 1010, and I rotate out 2 n5a's depending on which one may be dry.
                          PEACE

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Bones42 View Post
                            Just curious, but since you guys buy your own boots and helmets...would you accept those items being removed from the department budget? After all, you are willing to buy your own.
                            Wouldn't hurt my feelings any. I was never even issued a department helmet or pair of boots. I declined since I had my own and it would just be something to keep up with and clutter my locker.

                            After reading some of these posts, I can't believe we have managed to run a organized and functioning department despite the fact that some wear different boots and helmets (although the same color) than others.

                            Earth shattering indeed.
                            Career Firefighter
                            Volunteer Captain

                            -Professional in Either Role-

                            Originally posted by Rescue101
                            I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              GT, understood. And I really don't have a problem with guys buying their own stuff, as long as it's up to standards.

                              But I know my bean counters and battles I have over budgets. Should the bean counters find that all my personnel are buying their own gear....they would reduce my budget by $600 per guy as that is the helmet/boot amount we budget.

                              Budget wise, I think it's a bad precedent to set having guys buy their own stuff.

                              Firefighter wise....I have no problem with it.

                              Ask this question again in 3 months when I am done being Chief....I'll be all in favor of it!
                              "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Bones42 View Post
                                GT, understood. And I really don't have a problem with guys buying their own stuff, as long as it's up to standards.

                                But I know my bean counters and battles I have over budgets. Should the bean counters find that all my personnel are buying their own gear....they would reduce my budget by $600 per guy as that is the helmet/boot amount we budget.

                                Budget wise, I think it's a bad precedent to set having guys buy their own stuff.

                                Firefighter wise....I have no problem with it.

                                Ask this question again in 3 months when I am done being Chief....I'll be all in favor of it!
                                There is a solution. Reimburse the individual for the cost of the standard issue. They pay the rest.
                                ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                                Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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