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  • #61
    Snozzleman ...

    As I have said before, I really don't care.

    Your perception of the job and my perception of the job are two very different things. It's your feeling that you're right, and hey, if that works for you, fine.

    As I have stated, I take risks when the risks have a chance of making a meaningful impact of the outcome. I don't take risks because the public expects it. I don't take risks because the fireman who served before me would have taken those risks. I don't take risks because because I need to impress anyone, or maintain an image. I take risks when the risks will have a meaningful impact on the event.

    And yes, if SOPs are broken, even in a rescue, members need to be held accountable. That's how we get hurt and killed. I never been a beleiver in the "do whatever it takes" crap. We need to do what we are supposed to do to take care of us first, then take care of the emergency, and that includes driving the speed limit, stopping at all red lights and yes, wearing all required PPE all the time even if it slows down the rescue by 10 or 15 seconds.

    There are people that are dead when we arrive, or in an situation that no matter how hard we try, are going to die. Period. In those cases putting my life or the lives of my crew on the line isn't going to change the outcome. It's only going to leave some injured, or worst case, dead, firefighters. And that will only create many more problems that making the effort solves.

    We don't need to attempt sall rescues if resources is limited and right training and equipment isn't on scene. We don't need to attack all fires and we need to accept that even in the best case, there will be property lost that we are helpless to do anything about.

    When there is life that can be saved, I act. Sorry I wouldn't have acted in that situation you like to always bring up, but it wasn't my problem, and yes, I would have chosen not to act for what you may consider selfish reasons.If that doesn't meet your defination of a fireman i won't lose any sleep over it.

    When there is property that can be saved, I take reasonable risks if manpower, training, experience, resources and water supply allows. Think whatever you want as it really doesn't matter.

    Continue your bashing if you wish. I beleive most posters are able to look beyond your ramblings, but as I have told FWD, it's your time and effort so do what you wish. I'm done with you too.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 10-13-2010, 03:32 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
      Snozzleman ...

      As I have said before, I really don't care.

      Your perception of the job and my perception of the job are two very different things. It's your feeling that you're right, and hey, if that works for you, fine.

      As I have stated, I take risks when the risks have a chance of making a meaningful impact of the outcome. I don't take risks because the public expects it. I don't take risks because the fireman who served before me would have taken those risks. I don't take risks because because I need to impress anyone, or maintain an image. I take risks when the risks will have a meaningful impact on the event.

      And yes, if SOPs are broken, even in a rescue, members need to be held accountable. That's how we get hurt and killed. I never been a beleiver in the "do whatever it takes" crap. We need to do what we are supposed to do to take care of us first, then take care of the emergency, and that includes driving the speed limit, stopping at all red lights and yes, wearing all required PPE all the time even if it slows down the rescue by 10 or 15 seconds.

      There are people that are dead when we arrive, or in an situation that no matter how hard we try, are going to die. Period. In those cases putting my life or the lives of my crew on the line isn't going to change the outcome. It's only going to leave some injured, or worst case, dead, firefighters. And that will only create many more problems that making the effort solves.

      We don't need to attempt sall rescues if resources is limited and right training and equipment isn't on scene. We don't need to attack all fires and we need to accept that even in the best case, there will be property lost that we are helpless to do anything about.

      When there is life that can be saved, I act. Sorry I wouldn't have acted in that situation you like to always bring up, but it wasn't my problem, and yes, I would have chosen not to act for what you may consider selfish reasons.If that doesn't meet your defination of a fireman i won't lose any sleep over it.

      When there is property that can be saved, I take reasonable risks if manpower, training, experience, resources and water supply allows. Think whatever you want as it really doesn't matter.

      Continue your bashing if you wish. I beleive most posters are able to look beyond your ramblings, but as I have told FWD, it's your time and effort so do what you wish. I'm done with you too.


      LA, we may not have agreed on absolutely everything in the past, but this is one topic where we're always on the same page.

      It seems as though we're in the minority when it comes to using common sense - risk vs benefit, in a rescue, fire, or dangerous situation, ect...

      As Whocares elaborated on, most others when in an actual real life scenario would do the same as us. The difference is that they would not receive "firehouse.com" scorn.

      Once on this forum, these same individuals no doubt use it as a means of glorifying the opposite, saying that you're not a real firefighter if you don't carelessly risk your life to save another. They purport this nonsense of tradition and that it's the way of the fire service. The forum does not seem to be a real firefighters prospective anymore, but rather a means to talk tough and bash anyone that would do anything less than put their life in immediate danger.

      Well, I will continue to do things the safe way and my family can be thankful for that. Lately, I have been looking around European firefighting forums. I've almost forgotten about firehouse all together! I must say I've found their progressive way of thought refreshing. (although their political systems have left a little something to be desired

      Comment


      • #63
        Scarecrow... is that you?
        ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
        Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
          Scarecrow... is that you?
          I think so.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
            Scarecrow... is that you?
            Why else would a brand new member with only 3 posts talk about stuff from the past.
            "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by CharlieD View Post
              LA, we may not have agreed on absolutely everything in the past, but this is one topic where we're always on the same page.

              It seems as though we're in the minority when it comes to using common sense - risk vs benefit, in a rescue, fire, or dangerous situation, ect...

              As Whocares elaborated on, most others when in an actual real life scenario would do the same as us. The difference is that they would not receive "firehouse.com" scorn.

              Once on this forum, these same individuals no doubt use it as a means of glorifying the opposite, saying that you're not a real firefighter if you don't carelessly risk your life to save another. They purport this nonsense of tradition and that it's the way of the fire service. The forum does not seem to be a real firefighters prospective anymore, but rather a means to talk tough and bash anyone that would do anything less than put their life in immediate danger.

              Well, I will continue to do things the safe way and my family can be thankful for that. Lately, I have been looking around European firefighting forums. I've almost forgotten about firehouse all together! I must say I've found their progressive way of thought refreshing. (although their political systems have left a little something to be desired
              Hmmn,THERE'S a SURPRISE! Raised on the same scratch feed in the same yard. FOR you ILLITERATE folks: NO ONE said ANYTHING about CARELESSLY risking our lives. But a VAST majority, NOT including you two YB's, DO what is necessary to make a positive outcome,not just walk by 'cause you MIGHT have to break a sweat. Remember,this job isn't for the faint at heart, Mickey D's and Popeyes hires everyday and that work isn't as training and labor intensive as being a FIREFIGHTER. Sorry, If you're a Yard Breather,DO NOT apply here. T.C.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                Snozzleman ...

                As I have said before, I really don't care.

                Your perception of the job and my perception of the job are two very different things. It's your feeling that you're right, and hey, if that works for you, fine.

                As I have stated, I take risks when the risks have a chance of making a meaningful impact of the outcome. I don't take risks because the public expects it. I don't take risks because the fireman who served before me would have taken those risks. I don't take risks because because I need to impress anyone, or maintain an image. I take risks when the risks will have a meaningful impact on the event.

                And yes, if SOPs are broken, even in a rescue, members need to be held accountable. That's how we get hurt and killed. I never been a beleiver in the "do whatever it takes" crap. We need to do what we are supposed to do to take care of us first, then take care of the emergency, and that includes driving the speed limit, stopping at all red lights and yes, wearing all required PPE all the time even if it slows down the rescue by 10 or 15 seconds.

                There are people that are dead when we arrive, or in an situation that no matter how hard we try, are going to die. Period. In those cases putting my life or the lives of my crew on the line isn't going to change the outcome. It's only going to leave some injured, or worst case, dead, firefighters. And that will only create many more problems that making the effort solves.

                We don't need to attempt sall rescues if resources is limited and right training and equipment isn't on scene. We don't need to attack all fires and we need to accept that even in the best case, there will be property lost that we are helpless to do anything about.

                When there is life that can be saved, I act. Sorry I wouldn't have acted in that situation you like to always bring up, but it wasn't my problem, and yes, I would have chosen not to act for what you may consider selfish reasons.If that doesn't meet your defination of a fireman i won't lose any sleep over it.

                When there is property that can be saved, I take reasonable risks if manpower, training, experience, resources and water supply allows. Think whatever you want as it really doesn't matter.

                Continue your bashing if you wish. I beleive most posters are able to look beyond your ramblings, but as I have told FWD, it's your time and effort so do what you wish. I'm done with you too.
                Blah, blah, blah
                "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

                "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by CharlieD View Post
                  LA, we may not have agreed on absolutely everything in the past, but this is one topic where we're always on the same page.

                  It seems as though we're in the minority when it comes to using common sense - risk vs benefit, in a rescue, fire, or dangerous situation, ect...

                  As Whocares elaborated on, most others when in an actual real life scenario would do the same as us. The difference is that they would not receive "firehouse.com" scorn.

                  Once on this forum, these same individuals no doubt use it as a means of glorifying the opposite, saying that you're not a real firefighter if you don't carelessly risk your life to save another. They purport this nonsense of tradition and that it's the way of the fire service. The forum does not seem to be a real firefighters prospective anymore, but rather a means to talk tough and bash anyone that would do anything less than put their life in immediate danger.

                  Well, I will continue to do things the safe way and my family can be thankful for that. Lately, I have been looking around European firefighting forums. I've almost forgotten about firehouse all together! I must say I've found their progressive way of thought refreshing. (although their political systems have left a little something to be desired

                  Goodbye Scarecrow. I will absolutely make sure our ridiculous complacent webteam gets rid of your useless *** once again.
                  "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

                  "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by ThNozzleman View Post
                    Guys like me, Gonz, and Buff just like to beat up on people for no reason at all, just to feel like big shots.
                    Hey, that's cool. Whatever makes you happy.
                    Just a typical moronic, childish, idiotic munchkin.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
                      Hmmn,THERE'S a SURPRISE! Raised on the same scratch feed in the same yard. FOR you ILLITERATE folks: NO ONE said ANYTHING about CARELESSLY risking our lives. But a VAST majority, NOT including you two YB's, DO what is necessary to make a positive outcome,not just walk by 'cause you MIGHT have to break a sweat. Remember,this job isn't for the faint at heart, Mickey D's and Popeyes hires everyday and that work isn't as training and labor intensive as being a FIREFIGHTER. Sorry, If you're a Yard Breather,DO NOT apply here. T.C.
                      I guess I would define operating at afire without a partner, PPE, radio, tools and a handline as careless, but that's just me, especially in an urban area where the 1st due in likely only 2-3 minutes out from their station.

                      In a rural environment, the decision becomes more complicated. Not saying I would make entry into a structure, even though I now carry a set of gear in my vehicle, but it would be a (remote) possibility depending on the particular circumstances.

                      I guess it all comes down to how you define "careless" and "necessary", and how optimistic you are that we can change the outcome the majority of the time. I have a pretty strong feeling that our definitions of those two words are very, very far apart.
                      Train to fight the fires you fight.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                        I guess I would define operating at afire without a partner, PPE, radio, tools and a handline as careless, but that's just me, especially in an urban area where the 1st due in likely only 2-3 minutes out from their station.

                        In a rural environment, the decision becomes more complicated. Not saying I would make entry into a structure, even though I now carry a set of gear in my vehicle, but it would be a (remote) possibility depending on the particular circumstances.

                        I guess it all comes down to how you define "careless" and "necessary", and how optimistic you are that we can change the outcome the majority of the time. I have a pretty strong feeling that our definitions of those two words are very, very far apart.
                        Guess you figure I live in a City. Why don't you Google it sometime and get EDUCATED. AND.....I'm PRETTY sure I can work a child trapped in a Car fire(on the street) pretty well without needing an accountability board,RADIO,handline,OR A PARTNER for a RESCUE. AND DO IT WITHOUT being "CARELESS". I work RURAL enviornments EVERY day,you don't hold the match card on that. I feel that OUR outcomes CAN be changed(PROVEN)by prompt, AGGRESSIVE actions in the first part of an incident. WITHOUT UNDUE RISK to Responders. This is based on OUR PROVEN system of highly trained personnel and the equipment WE operate. Some folks might have floated with your musings UNTIL you spouted off about the Car fire. At that point you lost ANY credibility you ever had about being a Firefighter and certainly as a "Fire"fighter educator. NO true FF would allow a child to burn to death(in a car) without making a,or multiple Rescue attempts. So you basically hung yourself right there. Sorry if it keeps getting brought up,but speaking ONLY for myself I don't want ANY of OUR personnel even to BEGIN thinking that is an appropriate response. BECAUSE IT ISN'T. Cut and dried. T.C.
                        Last edited by Rescue101; 10-14-2010, 01:26 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                          That's a personal choice, and that's fine.

                          Condeming others for not making the same choice is also something that to me makes no sense. But that's me.
                          Christ, you're kidding me.
                          Last edited by GaiusPaul; 10-14-2010, 10:50 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by GaiusPaul View Post
                            Christ, you're kidding me.
                            Ha, that's what I thought for the longest time too...
                            "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

                            "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
                              Guess you figure I live in a City. Why don't you Google it sometime and get EDUCATED. AND.....I'm PRETTY sure I can work a child trapped in a Car fire(on the street) pretty well without needing an accountability board,RADIO,handline,OR A PARTNER for a RESCUE. AND DO IT WITHOUT being "CARELESS". I work RURAL enviornments EVERY day,you don't hold the match card on that. I feel that OUR outcomes CAN be changed(PROVEN)by prompt, AGGRESSIVE actions in the first part of an incident. WITHOUT UNDUE RISK to Responders. This is based on OUR PROVEN system of highly trained personnel and the equipment WE operate. Some folks might have floated with your musings UNTIL you spouted off about the Car fire. At that point you lost ANY credibility you ever had about being a Firefighter and certainly as a "Fire"fighter educator. NO true FF would allow a child to burn to death(in a car) without making a,or multiple Rescue attempts. So you basically hung yourself right there. Sorry if it keeps getting brought up,but speaking ONLY for myself I don't want ANY of OUR personnel even to BEGIN thinking that is an appropriate response. BECAUSE IT ISN'T. Cut and dried. T.C.

                              Actually Chief, I am familiar with your area as in the mid-80's I almost took a job at what was then Pleasent Mtn. The fact is our area is quite rural with the exception of a moderate density surburban area on the fringe next to the city, and it's probably even more sparsly populated per square mile than your area.

                              Ironically, I could have been on your department. Of course, that was when I was young and foolish and did beleive much of the fire service hogwash about taking risks now matter what impact you would have on the outcome. I fully agree that those outcomes can at times, be changed with trained personnel, claer SOPs and leadership, and we often do change the outcomes quite successfully, both a fire and rescue incidents on my combo department, as we have funding and a manpower base. I would put our record up against anyone's, including your's.

                              The truth is on my volunteer department, we are much less successful due to a very limited tax base and budget, limited manpower, a semi-dysfunctional mutual aid system and very limited experience, both on our department and most of our mutual aid departments.

                              As far as the off-duty rescue, we disagree on my responsibilities and obligations in that situation. I feel I have none, especially given the fact that the home department has made it very clear thazt they do not want any fire district personnel operating at a scene they happen to drive by. This is the last time I will discuss it. I, as much as it tears at some posters here, stand by my statement.

                              Again, I operate how I operate, and likely I will until I end my career. Call me whatever you choose.

                              Again, I wasn't planning on posting anything on this thread. I was simply going to let the back slapping go on. It's simple .. Don't mention me and I'll have nothing to say in the future on these types of activities as it's a personal choice.
                              Last edited by LaFireEducator; 10-14-2010, 04:14 PM.
                              Train to fight the fires you fight.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                If I recall correctly, at the beginning of the thread... NOBODY MENTIONED YOUR NAME. They alluded to they type of individual that fits your description...you could have ignored it, but no.... you answered on post #11 and I quote...

                                You're waiting on me?

                                Wow! I didn't know you cared that much.

                                It's a choice that we all have to make at the time.
                                and opened the proverbial can of whoop @$$ onto yourself.

                                I think you enjoy being beaten up on the forums.... otherwise.. why do you come here to begin with?
                                Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 10-14-2010, 04:34 PM.
                                ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                                Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

                                Comment

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