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Origin of the 5 mile rule on fire station placement

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  • Seagravesstick
    replied
    ISO Slayer

    Originally posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Yes this is correct and what I was trying to suggest. You stated it much better.

    The key word here is SCHEDULED or SCHEDULED SHIFTS.

    The best possible use of this would be to assign Platoon Type Systems, then assign firefighters to those platoons. There must still be a daily report form that shows they did show up for those hours. I refer to this as the Daily Staff Log, signed by an Officer, preferably the Duty Officer.

    You could adopt a weekly or 2-week form if inclined and can make it work. But one week is about all you can cram on 8.5" x 11". Make sure everything is kept in a Log Book or Binder. You may have to provide copies of the log.

    Like stated, you are only as good as the your documentation.
    Amen........

    Leave a comment:


  • PaladinKnight
    replied
    Originally posted by Seagravesstick View Post
    The only problem is that you have to have a schedule, each firefighter must be assigned to a designated schedule in order to recieve credit, no assigned scehdule no credit... Just hanging around a fire station does not count. We use to get fire departments credit for having a check-in sheet, any time they were at the fire station just check in and write down the time you were there... as of our last few ratings that we have assisted with this practice no longer is receiving credit.
    Yes this is correct and what I was trying to suggest. You stated it much better.

    The key word here is SCHEDULED or SCHEDULED SHIFTS.

    The best possible use of this would be to assign Platoon Type Systems, then assign firefighters to those platoons. There must still be a daily report form that shows they did show up for those hours. I refer to this as the Daily Staff Log, signed by an Officer, preferably the Duty Officer.

    You could adopt a weekly or 2-week form if inclined and can make it work. But one week is about all you can cram on 8.5" x 11". Make sure everything is kept in a Log Book or Binder. You may have to provide copies of the log.

    Like stated, you are only as good as the your documentation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Seagravesstick
    replied
    ISO Slayer

    Originally posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Interesting that you should mention this. If a volunteer dept can demonstrate that it has adopted a staff schedule, the 1/3 credit can be modified. If you are fortunate to have dedicated firefighters at the station 24/7, then you get credit for it.

    Any dept that is preparing for this should record every hour that each person performs work, fills duties, or spends on calls. Total those hours and divide by 365. That will give you your staff level.

    If you get a total of 8760 hours per year, that equals one firefighter on-duty 24/7/365.

    NFPA1710 is the Standard for a Full-time 4-Firefighter Engine Company Response. ISO's own documentation refers to the 1.5 mile road mile distance which a 4-firefighter Engine Company should respond. Knowing these two things, the goal would be to have 4 on-duty firefighters that can respond 24/7/365.

    If the department can document, about 35000 firefighters hours per year, then it would indicate the dept is full-time with a staff level of 4. But there must be documented hours, in other words, proof.

    Showing any number of full-time firefighters is better than the 1 to 3 ratio. Again, you will be measured against your historical records, reports; how many firefighters report to the structure fire. Once an average is established, that is your number. That number is compared to the Standard and exceptable numbers.

    If you have around 15 to 17 you are in the game. If you have only the original 4, you have a lot of work to do. If you have 25, you're good.

    The amount of time it takes to fill in the additional on-scene numbers will also be looked at. If it takes 30 minutes for an additional 10 people to repsond, it is too long.

    You are only as good as your ability to prove. Your reports and documentation will either help or hurt your position.
    The only problem is that you have to have a schedule, each firefighter must be assigned to a designated schedule in order to recieve credit, no assigned scehdule no credit... Just hanging around a fire station does not count. We use to get fire departments credit for having a check-in sheet, any time they were at the fire station just check in and write down the time you were there... as of our last few ratings that we have assisted with this practice no longer is receiving credit.

    Leave a comment:


  • PaladinKnight
    replied
    Originally posted by neiowa View Post
    BUT if the volunteer FF lives within 300ft of the station (lives not works). And FF/you logs hours at home then that time counts as manned station time for ISO. 1 to 1/same as a paid FF on duty in the station. Little knowm I think.
    Interesting that you should mention this. If a volunteer dept can demonstrate that it has adopted a staff schedule, the 1/3 credit can be modified. If you are fortunate to have dedicated firefighters at the station 24/7, then you get credit for it.

    Any dept that is preparing for this should record every hour that each person performs work, fills duties, or spends on calls. Total those hours and divide by 365. That will give you your staff level.

    If you get a total of 8760 hours per year, that equals one firefighter on-duty 24/7/365.

    NFPA1710 is the Standard for a Full-time 4-Firefighter Engine Company Response. ISO's own documentation refers to the 1.5 mile road mile distance which a 4-firefighter Engine Company should respond. Knowing these two things, the goal would be to have 4 on-duty firefighters that can respond 24/7/365.

    If the department can document, about 35000 firefighters hours per year, then it would indicate the dept is full-time with a staff level of 4. But there must be documented hours, in other words, proof.

    Showing any number of full-time firefighters is better than the 1 to 3 ratio. Again, you will be measured against your historical records, reports; how many firefighters report to the structure fire. Once an average is established, that is your number. That number is compared to the Standard and exceptable numbers.

    If you have around 15 to 17 you are in the game. If you have only the original 4, you have a lot of work to do. If you have 25, you're good.

    The amount of time it takes to fill in the additional on-scene numbers will also be looked at. If it takes 30 minutes for an additional 10 people to repsond, it is too long.

    You are only as good as your ability to prove. Your reports and documentation will either help or hurt your position.

    Leave a comment:


  • Seagravesstick
    replied
    ISO Slayer

    Originally posted by neiowa View Post
    BUT if the volunteer FF lives within 300ft of the station (lives not works). And FF/you logs hours at home then that time counts as manned station time for ISO. 1 to 1/same as a paid FF on duty in the station. Little knowm I think.
    I've never read that in ISO paperwork.....

    Leave a comment:


  • neiowa
    replied
    Originally posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    I don't know how I missed this direct question to me.

    ISO evaluates Station Placement based on the road mile distance from structures. For Engine Companies the distance is 1.5 mile. Service/Ladder Companies is 2.5 miles.

    If you look at the 1.5 miles distance for an Engine Company, the criteria is arriving with an Engine Company with 4 FF within 4 minutes, 90% of the time.

    The 5 Mile distance is arbitrary since that would indicate the arrival of an Engine Company in about 10 to 12 minutes. We all know the amount of damage that usually occurs in ten minutes if the fire is unchecked.

    But ISO computes other factors as well, especially for volunteer depts. The dept usually gets about 1/3 credit for each volunteer on the roster, so it takes 3 volunteers to carry the same value a one full-time FF. They compute delays for call handling, decision making and assembly of personnel. ....

    BUT if the volunteer FF lives within 300ft of the station (lives not works). And FF/you logs hours at home then that time counts as manned station time for ISO. 1 to 1/same as a paid FF on duty in the station. Little knowm I think.

    Leave a comment:


  • PaladinKnight
    replied
    Originally posted by hwoods View Post
    If anyone needs any Water for ISO Credit, I have a Surplus.......... The Storm that started last night has brought us over 8 inches so far and it's still raining......
    Look at it this way Harve... your guys can just draft from the street and save the fuel on the tankers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rescue101
    replied
    Originally posted by hwoods View Post
    If anyone needs any Water for ISO Credit, I have a Surplus.......... The Storm that started last night has brought us over 8 inches so far and it's still raining......
    AIRBOAT! ROAD TRIP! hehe T.C.

    Leave a comment:


  • hwoods
    replied
    And................

    If anyone needs any Water for ISO Credit, I have a Surplus.......... The Storm that started last night has brought us over 8 inches so far and it's still raining......

    Leave a comment:


  • Rescue101
    replied
    Originally posted by medic190 View Post
    CRAP!!! typo. Unless I claim to have missed the decimal point! Sorry. However, I have seen a few retired tractor drawn MC306's in this State...
    STILL won't be 15000 WATER on a 306. But it's all good. T.C.

    Leave a comment:


  • PaladinKnight
    replied
    As an afterthought to what I posted.. I need to add this little statement.

    Why settle for just a Class 8, when with just a little more effort and more attention to water supply, you can obtain Class 7 or 6?

    In the previous example, I tried to illustrate the amount of water you will need to do x, y, z. You are only limited by your imagination, and not necessarily your capabilities.

    I once did some Techical Advisor work for a dept that took their survey with 1 Engine 2 tankers and a utility truck and went from Class 9 to Class 6. The survey and tests took about 4 hours because they were very prepared. So it can be done with very little if you are committed.

    Never let the fear be an excuse. ISO is not coming to beat you up...

    It is important to be very honest about your situation, and work on the weak areas. Then go for it.

    And as Harve said... Be ready to waste a lot of water. You can never have too much.

    Leave a comment:


  • hwoods
    replied
    Tree??...........

    In Reference to the Dump Tank, I try to keep the Tanks full all the time, not let them draw down. We will set up two or three and Jet Tube between Tanks to maintain as much water as possible in the one that the Draft Pumper is drawing from. If the Tanks are constantly overflowing, you're doing your job, but if the water level in the Tanks is fluctuating widely, you don't have enough Tankers in the Shuttle......

    Leave a comment:


  • Stuart
    replied
    We've had some recent dealing with local insurance companies and ISO regarding a few houses that were outside the 5 road miles from our firehouse.

    The local insurance agents were very worried because the homeowner's insurance premium was going from $700 per year to over $3,000 because ISO had figured out how far away those residences were.

    After a flurry of emails, we were able to get credit for an automatic aid fire station that was (barely) within the 5 mile limit as long as they were on the first alarm. This enabled the homeowner's to keep their lower premium for insurance.

    Leave a comment:


  • tree68
    replied
    Originally posted by pasobuff View Post
    My neighboring department has an old aircraft fueling truck as a tanker...that thing is a MONSTER!....will have to find some old pictures of it.....
    We had a couple of departments with those. I think both got rid of them - just too big for our rural environments - try to maneuver one on a one lane back road...

    We currently have two 2000 tankers, one with a swivel dump. That seems to be the size most departments are going with.

    Another consideration on dumping a tanker is that not everyone carries sufficient drop tank capacity to take an entire tanker (especially not 15,000gallons ), and unless you're really moving a lot of water, the tanks are rarely empty when the next tanker backs up to the tank.

    In fact, what good does it do to be able to dump at 1000 GPM if you're only moving 250 GPM to meet the ISO standard? (Rhetorical question - no need to answer! I'd rather have that 1000 GPM capability, thanks.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Seagravesstick
    replied
    ISO Slayer

    Originally posted by hwoods View Post
    So, You haven't seen my Hose Laying Helicopter???...........
    No.... But I would love to....

    Leave a comment:

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