Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Fire Departments & Rising Energy Costs

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by nameless View Post
    I'm going to have to echo tree68, that in the past and in the present electric utilities in urban areas have supported trolleys. So I think in 2010 and beyond we can figure it out and get power distribution to the suburbs and maybe even rural areas.


    as for your 3rd point that was just idiotic, many pieces especially in the low staffed paid and volunteer departments serve as taxis. How many are actually pumping or using their aerial? It doesn't necessarily have to be the hydrant, but there could be some sort of "power hydrant" spaced along the streets and just like we magically do with the water system you hit multiple hydrants for multiple apparatus.
    Figure out the current draw of the motor required to replace a 300hp diesel driving a 1250gpm pump. Then the cost to install 3ph 480v (+) disconnect (and a meter) and to extend cabling from nearest main. Going to install it at every address? Or the pumper is to haul a few hundred feet of "extension" cord? Will no work.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by nameless View Post
      I'm going to have to echo tree68, that in the past and in the present electric utilities in urban areas have supported trolleys. So I think in 2010 and beyond we can figure it out and get power distribution to the suburbs and maybe even rural areas.


      as for your 3rd point that was just idiotic, many pieces especially in the low staffed paid and volunteer departments serve as taxis. How many are actually pumping or using their aerial? It doesn't necessarily have to be the hydrant, but there could be some sort of "power hydrant" spaced along the streets and just like we magically do with the water system you hit multiple hydrants for multiple apparatus.
      I stand by my previous comment that you've obviously never actually been to a working fire if you actually think what i said is idiotic. You clearly have no concept of how electricity, electric motors, and power distrobution work. Please stop trying to shoot down logic and fact with "neh neh your an idiot".
      Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by neiowa View Post
        Figure out the current draw of the motor required to replace a 300hp diesel driving a 1250gpm pump.
        FWIW, that's about 225 kilowatts and enough available amperage to run a small factory at 480 volts...

        Maybe instead of outlets on the hydrants we should just use long jumper cables clamped on the overhead high voltage primaries?
        "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
        sigpic
        The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

        Comment


        • #19
          The electrocution issues alone worry me with the power outlet idea.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by downstate_firefighter View Post
            The electrocution issues alone worry me with the power outlet idea.
            Oh please. I had an across-the-chest 120vac 'incident' that I survived (thanks to an attentive classmate that hit the e-stop button) and look at me, I turned out fine! How much worse could a few hundred amps at 480 really be? Wuss.
            Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
              FWIW, that's about 225 kilowatts and enough available amperage to run a small factory at 480 volts...

              Maybe instead of outlets on the hydrants we should just use long jumper cables clamped on the overhead high voltage primaries?
              I'm not sure you'd need a 500 HP motor to drive the pump alone. A lot of that is needed to move the ?15 tons of fire truck to the scene.

              Industrial fire pump installations would provide a clue as to the true requirements for such an electric motor. A search for fire pumps shows a 3000 gpm electric dewatering pump at 90HP, and 2000 GPM "temporary" fire pumps at about 100 HP.

              That said, I don't think it's practical today, at least not in the way we're discussing it.

              We might look to the railroads and big earthmovers. "Diesel" locomotives are really big generators that create the electricity that turns the traction motors mounted on each axle. Those huge dump trucks they use at mines operate much the same.
              Last edited by tree68; 09-14-2010, 11:42 AM.
              Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

              Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                Industrial fire pump installations would provide a clue as to the true requirements for such an electric motor.
                Commonly 250+ hp which is equivalent to 200+ kW.

                We might look to the railroads and big earthmovers.
                It's a thought but the turbine/generators used in those examples tend to be efficient only on the very large scale.
                "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                sigpic
                The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by nmfire View Post
                  Oh please. I had an across-the-chest 120vac 'incident' that I survived (thanks to an attentive classmate that hit the e-stop button) and look at me, I turned out fine! How much worse could a few hundred amps at 480 really be? Wuss.
                  "fine".....


                  The jury is out on that one.

                  I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                  "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                  "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Cafs

                    If cafs can put out fire 5 - 7 x faster with 5 - 7 x less water I would say you would need less engine run time on scene and less tankers shuttling water from scene to fill site. Makes sense to me.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by engineeremtp View Post
                      If cafs can put out fire 5 - 7 x faster with 5 - 7 x less water I would say you would need less engine run time on scene and less tankers shuttling water from scene to fill site. Makes sense to me.
                      It works better when you shuttle water from the fill site to the scene. Alot of departments are running trucks that was made long before CAFS was an idea.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by nmfire View Post
                        I stand by my previous comment that you've obviously never actually been to a working fire if you actually think what i said is idiotic. You clearly have no concept of how electricity, electric motors, and power distrobution work. Please stop trying to shoot down logic and fact with "neh neh your an idiot".

                        thats exactly it, I've never been to a fire. Good observation. Maybe if you're real nice I'll let you smell my gear and you can fantasize about being a fireman.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by nameless View Post
                          thats exactly it, I've never been to a fire. Good observation. Maybe if you're real nice I'll let you smell my gear and you can fantasize about being a fireman.
                          ooooh. I'm so hurt. You can call names and point out how special you are all your want. You're still wrong and there isn't a single thing you can say to change that. I and others have explained in great detail why, and you're only digging your hole deeper by continuing to defend it.
                          Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Alternative energy sources

                            One of the items already touched upon, (control of energy pricing) is quite apparent at the present time. According to nearly all of current economic models, as the amount of a commocity increases, there should be a reduction in price. The current natural gas situation and the huge potential supply discovered in the Marcellus Shale layer is defying the economic model because of manipulation by both our government, (extraction tax threats) and the energy producers. This will be an interesting experiment in extracting $ from your wallet and lining politicians and energy companies bottom lines.
                            For those of you blessed with hydranted systems... The great problem with solar energy is that it is only available when the sun shines. Imagine huge elevated water storage reservoirs that get filled during the daylight hours, and are available as energy sources 24 hours a day. Hooking to a hydrant with a 20" main could supply 4,000 gpm at say 50 psi. Running 1/2 of this water through a turbine to drive a high pressure pump for firefighting water would be an easy solution to your percieved problem.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Actually, you only need electric service to get the truck started. Once it's running, it's own PTO generator can supply the needed electric to the truck itself. And there you go.....

                              As long as the truck generator is running, the truck has power. As long as the truck has power, the generator can continue running.
                              "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Bones42 View Post
                                As long as the truck generator is running, the truck has power. As long as the truck has power, the generator can continue running.
                                In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

                                Of course, if we could harness all the hot air in these forums all our energy problems would be solved.
                                So you call this your free country
                                Tell me why it costs so much to live
                                -3dd

                                Comment

                                300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

                                Collapse

                                Upper 300x250

                                Collapse

                                Taboola

                                Collapse

                                Leader

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X