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FF Loses Life Trying to Save DPW Worker

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  • LVFD301
    replied
    I don't want to second guess the tragic situation either - but my mind keeps coming back to this being right behind a fire station. Lots of airpacks stored there.

    Leave a comment:


  • LVFD301
    replied
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    They call me the coward, that's my name. i run around town running away from flames .............

    Appropiate that you finally admit it to all.

    Leave a comment:


  • fieldseng2
    replied
    So putting on my SCBA (or same mask with airline) before going in a sewer manhole isn't enough to meet your standard?
    No sir, I did not say that at all. If you read my ranting carefully...what I implied regarding respiratory protection, an O2 NonReBreather (NRB) is not designed as a form of respiratory protection in an IDLH atmosphere. In fact, in certain IDLH atmospheres this would be extremley dangerous (ie. explosive atmosphere).

    A SCBA or a supplied air line w/an escape bottle is exactly what you should wear. (In the case of a confined space you would also need a safety attendant monitoring the space as well).

    What I did say about wearing a SCBA, certain gases at high concentrations/PPMs can indeed penetrate a positive pressure SCBA mask. Which is why continuous monitoring of a confined space is aboslutley neccessary.

    Ill keep it short this time (or at least try). Im not gonna judge what happened, I wasnt there, nor do I have all the facts. What I will tell all of you again....a confined space is an animal like no other. You cant think in terms of a building on fire. Most buildings have many means of getting in, and getting out....most of the time.

    Now simplify the definition of a confined space......Its a space thats confining! Hard to get, hard to get out by yourself let alone trying to drag out dead weight of an adult.

    Leave a comment:


  • Acklan
    replied
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    They call me the coward, that's my name. i run around town running away from flames .............
    Would not be surprised.

    Leave a comment:


  • neiowa
    replied
    Originally posted by fieldseng2 View Post
    mcdonl

    nmfire

    All I can say is UGH! Cuz here I go on a major soap box...

    ...
    So putting on my SCBA (or same mask with airline) before going in a sewer manhole isn't enough to meet your standard?

    Leave a comment:


  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Originally posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    ...if he's total coward and d-bag, you mean.
    They call me the coward, that's my name. i run around town running away from flames .............

    Leave a comment:


  • ThNozzleman
    replied
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And yes, i would still do that today. A burning car, even if a child is trapped, is no place for a firefighter without PPE, SCBA and a handline.
    ...if he's total coward and d-bag, you mean.

    Leave a comment:


  • L-Webb
    replied
    Originally posted by Capt387 View Post
    I had one of my engineers make a statement in his house that his life wasn't worth risking for $10.36 per hour if someone went down. I am still dealing with that line of garbage. I couldn't believe it! Told the chief I would have handled it different.
    Then why is he doing this job ANYWAYS?????

    Leave a comment:


  • Capt387
    replied
    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

    I would give my all to save my Brothers on the job too.
    I had one of my engineers make a statement in his house that his life wasn't worth risking for $10.36 per hour if someone went down. I am still dealing with that line of garbage. I couldn't believe it! Told the chief I would have handled it different.

    Leave a comment:


  • FyredUp
    replied
    Originally posted by jfTL41 View Post
    Instead of sitting around speculating about why this happened or saying "I would never..." maybe come out to the funerals and wakes today tommorow and Saturday, pay your respects and have a beer with these guys friends and brother firemen.
    I am a very highly trained and I like to think I have a bit of experience too and I cannot say honestly that if I saw a longtime friend or co-worker go down in such a fashion that I would not have done the same, contrary to all training, experience and common sense. How many soldiers and LEO's have been shot and or killed trying to remove dead or wounded comrades from harms way? How many firefighters have died trying to save a brother firefighter?
    The only NEVER in this world is that you NEVER KNOW!
    Testify BROTHER!

    My son is a member of the volly FD I am on and I guarantee you I would not be able to calmly standby and do NOTHING if that was him down in that hole.

    I would give my all to save my Brothers on the job too.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 09-09-2010, 06:31 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • jfTL41
    replied
    Instead of sitting around speculating about why this happened or saying "I would never..." maybe come out to the funerals and wakes today tommorow and Saturday, pay your respects and have a beer with these guys friends and brother firemen.
    I am a very highly trained and I like to think I have a bit of experience too and I cannot say honestly that if I saw a longtime friend or co-worker go down in such a fashion that I would not have done the same, contrary to all training, experience and common sense. How many soldiers and LEO's have been shot and or killed trying to remove dead or wounded comrades from harms way? How many firefighters have died trying to save a brother firefighter?
    The only NEVER in this world is that you NEVER KNOW!

    Leave a comment:


  • Catch22
    replied
    Originally posted by nmfire View Post
    How is going to magically go through a mask with positive pressure? Because if can magically do that, then it can magically go through an SCBA mask too.
    A NRB mask is far from a positive pressure mask. A positive pressure mask, such as an SCBA, must maintain a certain pressure within the mask at all times, including during inspiration.

    That is not the case with a NRB or any other form of oxygen mask. The bag on the bottom of an oxygen mask is there to ensure that the breather is getting as much oxygen as possible. Unless you're a very small guy, you will breath in more than the amount of oxygen within that mask and bag and you will breath in outside air.

    Hopefully you, nor anyone else for that matter, will attempt something like this and end up a victim as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcdonl
    replied
    Sorry...

    Sorry about that. I didnt mean to start an argument or disrespect. I was only pointing out that even though it is wrong, I could see where he was coming from.

    The important thing here is to learn from this tragic mistake.

    Again, I apologize if I led anyone to feel I was being disrespectful.

    Leave a comment:


  • fieldseng2
    replied
    Further...

    L-Webb is right. This is not the time or place. It might be prudent to start a different thread on the topic of confined spaces, and use this thread to give our respects.

    Leave a comment:


  • fieldseng2
    replied
    mcdonl
    If you don't have the proper training, if you don't have the proper PPE, monitoring equipment, ventilation, etc.....DO NOT ENTER A CONFINED SPACE!

    But man, I am not 100% sure what I would do if a fellow FF and probably good friend collapsed right in front of me, just down the bottom of a hole. Age indicates the would be rescuer may have been considering the DPW worker had an MI, who knows. I just know that I would have a hard time following protocol if I were there alone and witnessed this.

    Easy to say you would get the proper gear and resources on the internet, but I am not so sure I would.

    I guess I am a candidate for future statistic.
    nmfire
    If I had nothing but a D tank of O2 and a mask, I'd be down that hole before you can say osha. I really don't care if isn't the approved official method. I'll breath, hold my breath, and put some on the other guy. Then keep doing that until I drag him out or someone else arrives.
    All I can say is UGH! Cuz here I go on a major soap box...

    I HATE using the word "expert", because I dont believe there is such an animal. I will tell you working in our field, AND in the field of industrial safety....I have worked in, around, inspected many types of confined spaces ...I also instruct courses on confined space safety (from awarness level to entry rescue)

    All that being said...

    Everything you guys are saying is EXACTLY what gets people killed in confined spaces....

    "easy to say on the internet...." you say. NO...easy to say from first hand experience/witnessing such events. It could take literally a blink of an eye and its lights out...and if you are alone like you say.....what happens if you go down? Now who is gonna call for help and/or come rescue you? Again thats EXACTLY how people get killed in confined spaces..

    "I'll breath, hold my breath, and put some on the other guy. Then keep doing that until I drag him out or someone else arrives........." Tell you what...take a breath, stetch 200' of 1 3/4", throw a 24' ladder by yourself, then drag rescue randy 100'..do all that w/out taking a breath..oh yeah make sure you have smelling salts under your nose the whole time. Back to your hold your breath and drag him out. Ever try dragging/hauling 200lbs of dead wieght person up a narrow 6' plus ladder thru a really skinny opening? Bet ya havent. Bottom line is I don't care how good you think you are, or how good of shape you are in you will become a statistic. AGAIN these are the EXACT things getting people killed in confined spaces.

    How is going to magically go through a mask with positive pressure? Because if can magically do that, then it can magically go through an SCBA mask too
    Am I right to say you are talking about an O2 mask? An O2 mask does not even come close to providng the respiratory protection you need to enter an IDLH atmosphere. It sounds like an SCBA is exactly what they should have had on. HOWEVER, YES.... gases at certain PPMs can INDEED penetrate a positive pressure SCBA! Which is why you should constantly monitor a confined space if someone is in there.


    Maybe some of you to no fault of your own do not exactly understand what a confined space is. In order for a "container" to be deemed a confined space it must meet the 3 following things..

    1) You must be able to physically enter the space. (sounds like a no brainer I know)

    2) It is NOT designed for continuous occupancy. (In other words, something you would enter only to inspect, repair, maintenance, etc.)

    3) DIFFICULT to ENTER or EXIT. Whether its a narrow opening, or a 100' drop...your gonna have to have some kind of safety line. Hold your breath, wear an O2 mask..its still gonna be a tit for you to get in/out by yourself let alone drag an unconsciouss person out.

    Time/space are to narrow for a confined space class here. But, there are 2 types of confined spaces: PERMIT REQUIRED and NON-PERMIT REQUIRED. Ill bet ya a wooden nickle the confined space in question was definatley a PERMIT REQUIRED CONFINED SPACE. That being said (w/out trying to Monday morning quarterback)...there should have been at the very least..

    1) A permit on site. I know all you OSHA haters are sticking your nose up, but do you know whats on that permit? A list of all the possible hazards in that space, controls taken to eliminate and/or reduce the hazards, a list of REQUIRED PPE, AND the signature of all involved acknowledging the existance of hazards, controls, need for PPE.

    2) SAFETY ATTENDANT. This guy stays outside the space, monitors the entrants, and the hazards of the space. He has means of calling for immediate help, and performs NON-ENTRY RESCUE if he is able.

    3) Constant atmospheric monitoring. O2, LEL, CO at minimum, but with the potential of H2S they should have a meter capable of reading that as well.


    Look fellas I could rant on and on. Here is my point in a net shell....Confined spaces are an animal like no other...You cant use rescue tactics in a confined space like you would a structure fire.....or could you? Here is an example maybe you can relate to...though not technically a confined space, but in its state back then maybe it should have been......remember the Worcester 6? Im not taking anything away from those brave men, but look what happened...they kept running in...those "would be rescuers"..... Remember the chief finally had to say "ENOUGH"!

    Just because you can't see any hazards does not mean they are not there. Ever smell CO? Ever see it? Ever taste it? Can it kill you?


    LaFireEducator
    A confined space, without the proper training and equipment is never the right place to try to make a resue. Never. There are times when we just have to say no, a confined space is always that place without the right stuff.
    Sorry fellas..I have to 100,000,000% agree w/the old boy on this one. The risk far too much out wieghs the gain here.

    Leave a comment:

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