FF Loses Life Trying to Save DPW Worker

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

Islandfire03... you are way out of line....

[Just a new name]

The DPW worker was also a fellow firefighter at the same fire department. Rest in peace.

[mcdonl]

Sad Story

What a sad story. I know...

If you don't have the proper training, if you don't have the proper PPE, monitoring equipment, ventilation, etc.....DO NOT ENTER A CONFINED SPACE!

But man, I am not 100% sure what I would do if a fellow FF and probably good friend collapsed right in front of me, just down the bottom of a hole. Age indicates the would be rescuer may have been considering the DPW worker had an MI, who knows. I just know that I would have a hard time following protocol if I were there alone and witnessed this.

Easy to say you would get the proper gear and resources on the internet, but I am not so sure I would.

I guess I am a candidate for future statistic.

[nmfire]

It would definately be a tough decision. For what its worth, if an SCBA is not readily available, an O2 bottle and non-rebreather from a nearby EMS bag would probably do the job in a pinch.

[LaFireEducator]

It would definately be a tough decision. For what its worth, if an SCBA is not readily available, an O2 bottle and non-rebreather from a nearby EMS bag would probably do the job in a pinch.

With all due respect, those are the kinds of shortcuts we often use and end up paying the price.

The downed DPW worker also being a firefighter certainly did complicate this situation.

However, there are times that we do have to admit likely defeat on arrival, and normally this type of situation is one of those times. Any shortcutting in terms of PPE or training in situations like this, on the very off-chance that the victim is still alive or viable, should be something that we as a service defiantly view as unacceptable.

[mtg55]

With all due respect, those are the kinds of shortcuts we often use and end up paying the price.

The downed DPW worker also being a firefighter certainly did complicate this situation.

However, there are times that we do have to admit likely defeat on arrival, and normally this type of situation is one of those times. Any shortcutting in terms of PPE or training in situations like this, on the very off-chance that the victim is still alive or viable, should be something that we as a service defiantly view as unacceptable.

La, I don't think NM was condoning it, just options given if the PROPER gear was not available. I too would have a hard time watching this go on and not doing a thing. We just need to make sure whatever we do we don't wind up in the same boat.

[nmfire]

This is coming from the person who would drive past a burning car and not attempt to pull victims out because he might get sunburn on his arm. His logic as it applies to rescue situations should be taken with a grain of salt.

If I had nothing but a D tank of O2 and a mask, I'd be down that hole before you can say osha. I really don't care if isn't the approved official method. I'll breath, hold my breath, and put some on the other guy. Then keep doing that until I drag him out or someone else arrives.

[sfd1992]

If I had nothing but a D tank of O2 and a mask, I'd be down that hole before you can say osha. I really don't care if isn't the approved official method. I'll breath, hold my breath, and put some on the other guy. Then keep doing that until I drag him out or someone else arrives.

You do realize that you are probably saying the same thing many would-be rescuers have said in the past, right before they become part of the 60%, right?

O2 and a non-rebreather isn't going to get you far unless it's a strictly O2 deficiency situation, and even then it's not smart at all.

Sewer gas (H2S) is going to go right through that mask and kill you.

Don't be stupid, please.

[nmfire]

How is going to magically go through a mask with positive pressure? Because if can magically do that, then it can magically go through an SCBA mask too.

[LaFireEducator]

This is coming from the person who would drive past a burning car and not attempt to pull victims out because he might get sunburn on his arm. His logic as it applies to rescue situations should be taken with a grain of salt.

If I had nothing but a D tank of O2 and a mask, I'd be down that hole before you can say osha. I really don't care if isn't the approved official method. I'll breath, hold my breath, and put some on the other guy. Then keep doing that until I drag him out or someone else arrives.

And yes, i would still do that today. A burning car, even if a child is trapped, is no place for a firefighter without PPE, SCBA and a handline.

A confined space, without the proper training and equipment is never the right place to try to make a resue. Never. There are times when we just have to say no, a confined space is always that place without the right stuff.

[nmfire]

Case and point.

[L-Webb]

This is not the time or place for this.

My prayers are with them.

[LaFireEducator]

I agree to end this discussion on NM agrees to stop his attacks.

[fieldseng2]

mcdonl

If you don't have the proper training, if you don't have the proper PPE, monitoring equipment, ventilation, etc.....DO NOT ENTER A CONFINED SPACE!

But man, I am not 100% sure what I would do if a fellow FF and probably good friend collapsed right in front of me, just down the bottom of a hole. Age indicates the would be rescuer may have been considering the DPW worker had an MI, who knows. I just know that I would have a hard time following protocol if I were there alone and witnessed this.

Easy to say you would get the proper gear and resources on the internet, but I am not so sure I would.

I guess I am a candidate for future statistic.

nmfire

If I had nothing but a D tank of O2 and a mask, I'd be down that hole before you can say osha. I really don't care if isn't the approved official method. I'll breath, hold my breath, and put some on the other guy. Then keep doing that until I drag him out or someone else arrives.

All I can say is UGH! Cuz here I go on a major soap box...

I HATE using the word "expert", because I dont believe there is such an animal. I will tell you working in our field, AND in the field of industrial safety....I have worked in, around, inspected many types of confined spaces ...I also instruct courses on confined space safety (from awarness level to entry rescue)

All that being said...

Everything you guys are saying is EXACTLY what gets people killed in confined spaces....

"easy to say on the internet...." you say. NO...easy to say from first hand experience/witnessing such events. It could take literally a blink of an eye and its lights out...and if you are alone like you say.....what happens if you go down? Now who is gonna call for help and/or come rescue you? Again thats EXACTLY how people get killed in confined spaces..

"I'll breath, hold my breath, and put some on the other guy. Then keep doing that until I drag him out or someone else arrives........." Tell you what...take a breath, stetch 200' of 1 3/4", throw a 24' ladder by yourself, then drag rescue randy 100'..do all that w/out taking a breath..oh yeah make sure you have smelling salts under your nose the whole time. Back to your hold your breath and drag him out. Ever try dragging/hauling 200lbs of dead wieght person up a narrow 6' plus ladder thru a really skinny opening? Bet ya havent. Bottom line is I don't care how good you think you are, or how good of shape you are in you will become a statistic. AGAIN these are the EXACT things getting people killed in confined spaces.

How is going to magically go through a mask with positive pressure? Because if can magically do that, then it can magically go through an SCBA mask too

Am I right to say you are talking about an O2 mask? An O2 mask does not even come close to providng the respiratory protection you need to enter an IDLH atmosphere. It sounds like an SCBA is exactly what they should have had on. HOWEVER, YES.... gases at certain PPMs can INDEED penetrate a positive pressure SCBA! Which is why you should constantly monitor a confined space if someone is in there.


Maybe some of you to no fault of your own do not exactly understand what a confined space is. In order for a "container" to be deemed a confined space it must meet the 3 following things..

1) You must be able to physically enter the space. (sounds like a no brainer I know)

2) It is NOT designed for continuous occupancy. (In other words, something you would enter only to inspect, repair, maintenance, etc.)

3) DIFFICULT to ENTER or EXIT. Whether its a narrow opening, or a 100' drop...your gonna have to have some kind of safety line. Hold your breath, wear an O2 mask..its still gonna be a tit for you to get in/out by yourself let alone drag an unconsciouss person out.

Time/space are to narrow for a confined space class here. But, there are 2 types of confined spaces: PERMIT REQUIRED and NON-PERMIT REQUIRED. Ill bet ya a wooden nickle the confined space in question was definatley a PERMIT REQUIRED CONFINED SPACE. That being said (w/out trying to Monday morning quarterback)...there should have been at the very least..

1) A permit on site. I know all you OSHA haters are sticking your nose up, but do you know whats on that permit? A list of all the possible hazards in that space, controls taken to eliminate and/or reduce the hazards, a list of REQUIRED PPE, AND the signature of all involved acknowledging the existance of hazards, controls, need for PPE.

2) SAFETY ATTENDANT. This guy stays outside the space, monitors the entrants, and the hazards of the space. He has means of calling for immediate help, and performs NON-ENTRY RESCUE if he is able.

3) Constant atmospheric monitoring. O2, LEL, CO at minimum, but with the potential of H2S they should have a meter capable of reading that as well.


Look fellas I could rant on and on. Here is my point in a net shell....Confined spaces are an animal like no other...You cant use rescue tactics in a confined space like you would a structure fire.....or could you? Here is an example maybe you can relate to...though not technically a confined space, but in its state back then maybe it should have been......remember the Worcester 6? Im not taking anything away from those brave men, but look what happened...they kept running in...those "would be rescuers"..... Remember the chief finally had to say "ENOUGH"!

Just because you can't see any hazards does not mean they are not there. Ever smell CO? Ever see it? Ever taste it? Can it kill you?


LaFireEducator

A confined space, without the proper training and equipment is never the right place to try to make a resue. Never. There are times when we just have to say no, a confined space is always that place without the right stuff.

Sorry fellas..I have to 100,000,000% agree w/the old boy on this one. The risk far too much out wieghs the gain here.

[fieldseng2]

Further...

L-Webb is right. This is not the time or place. It might be prudent to start a different thread on the topic of confined spaces, and use this thread to give our respects.