Uniontown Pa.

[FireMedic049]

So a community of 15,000 can't be served by volunteers?

The fact is economic problems need real answers. It's unfortunate that these firefighters will lose tier jobs, but a department with that population and that call volume (if it's 800) should have no problems being served by a volunteer department.

Go troll somewhere else please. This isn't about whether or not "a community of 15,000 can't be served by volunteers". It is about whether or not THIS PARTICULAR CITY can be adequately served by ONLY volunteers. In THIS PARTICULAR CITY it is also about politics and ego (the Mayor's) more than it is about the budget.

I think this crisis will make a lot of departments in communities of that size reexamine how they deliver fire protection. And in a lot of places it will mean getting back to volunteers, which is not a bad thing.

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinions.

I have been on all-volunteer departments and seen all-volunteer departments with a much larger population operate quite effectively.

I have too, but I've also seen all-volunteer departments with much smaller populations operate quite ineffectively.

Again, it's not government's job to provide firefighting jobs. It's duty is to deliver service at the best cost.

NO! The local municipal government's duty is to ensure that adequate services are provided. In order to do this, some jobs will be created. In most municipalities, this will include jobs in public works, code enforcement and law enforcement. In some, this will also include jobs in such things as secretarial services, city managers, EMS and even firefighting.

[FireMedic049]

Why would anyone think this is unusual?

Everyone has seen stories about volunteer departments going to combination or paid as their town grows and run volume exceeds volunteer capabilities.

When a town shrinks due to economic collapse we should expect to see the opposite happen -- paid departments going to combination or volunteer. At that point it may be the best choice for the town at the time.

Sure it will have some repurcussions, but thats the modern world. I'm sure they're losing all sorts of other local services that they'd like to keep but can no longer afford.

You're right, this isn't unusual. These types of decisions are becoming commonplace these days.

What the true issue in this case is simply ego and politics. I believe they have been losing some other local services, but the Mayor seems to have a vendetta-like focus on the FD and they are seeing disproportionate cuts.

[auxman]

Of course there is politics. That goes hand in hand with being part of the government. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. No public agency is immune. Get two different political factions fighting and no telling what public service might get caught in the middle through no fault of their own. Doesn't make things right, but thats the way it is.

But, regardless of political fighting, any paid firefighters in a town of 12K are living on borrowed time anyway, especially if the town is in general economic trouble, city budget trouble, or continuing population losses. Unfortunately, there are a lot of towns in this situation, especially in the "rust belt".

Why is this risky? At least in my state, the crossover point between vol to combo or paid seems to lie between 10-20,000. Above 20K is almost always all paid. Below 10K is always all volunteer. Cities in between can go both ways.

[FireMedic049]

According to the union's website, they've run 100 working structure fires so far this year.

Before the layoff last year, they were running two stations with 13 career staff. That's two people per station, 24/7, assuming no sick, vacation, or other impediments of the sort.

There's no way they could operate without their volunteer backup. The career people are/were not much more than drivers, to ensure that the rigs got out the door.

And you would be wrong.

In order to get a full first alarm assignment, they need to not only hire everyone back that got laid off (or at least fill the positions), but they need to hire about 30 more.

I certainly don't see that happening.

While both of these are pretty much true, many, many small career and predominately career combo departments do not have "full first alarm assignment" staffing on duty.

What they do have in general, is a small compliment of on-duty personnel to handle the vast majority of calls and the ability to get additional personnel to the scene when needed.

For example, my small career department has a 5 FF minimum staffing level currently and we easily handle at least 90% of our calls with our on-duty staffing, but we also have the ability to put NFPA 1710 staffing levels on the fireground in a relatively short time period with a callback of off-duty personnel when we have a building fire.

[LaFireEducator]

According to the union's website, they've run 100 working structure fires so far this year.

So you really want me to beleive that a town of just over 12K has run 100 working structure fires through August, which projects out to over 140 for the year?

That's more than one structure fire per 100 residents.

We are a town of 17K and we run under 20. My last department was a town of 24K and we ran under 30 for the year.

Sorry, that number simply doesn't wash unless they have one hell of an arson problem.

[Chief_Roy]

So a community of 15,000 can't be served by volunteers?


I find it hard to beleive that a community of 15K runs 6,000 calls a year, even with EMS.

My old department had a population of 17,000 and ran 6,000 calls a year, about 90% of that being EMS. I hear they're still going up even though the population growth has been stagnant. The reason for our call volume was we had an aging population and a ton of people on Medicaid. Most of the Medicaid people didn't own cars and most of the private clinics refused to take them so they relied on EMS.

[voyager9]

I have seen more than a few posts on the internet form volunteers in Uniontown stating that they have enjoyed it, but when the paid staff goes, they go. They will not have the jobs of 13 people on their concious. I hope that's true and I hope that none of the citizens in Uniontown die before this Mayor and select council members get ousted.

If this is truly as it sounds then this is petty city-hall BS. I wish I could say I was surprised. Good for the volunteers to show solidarity..

Reading the article got me thinking what I would do in their position. I honestly think it is good that the volunteers are standing up against these layoffs.. at the same time doing so basically strips the city of all fire protection.. is that fair to the citizens? It's easy for me to sit on the Internet and say yes, but if I were in their shoes it would be very hard to ignore the pager when it goes off..

On a lighter note: Are they changing the name of the town to Vollytown?

[slackjawedyokel]

volleytown sounds better than scabtown

[LVFD301]

volleytown sounds better than scabtown

Nope, discretion is the better part of valor. I am deleting what I had posted and
just leaving it alone.

[MemphisE34a]

According to the union's website, they've run 100 working structure fires so far this year.

So you really want me to beleive that a town of just over 12K has run 100 working structure fires through August, which projects out to over 140 for the year?

That's more than one structure fire per 100 residents.

We are a town of 17K and we run under 20.

Maybe the good people of Bosshier Parish are more careful because they know their fire department is not going to try to extinguish their fires.

We have several engine territories of 3 square miles or less that make over 100 working fires a year, then again we generally put them out after we show up.

[PNEFD23]

I was looking at the wrong site for the numbers I threw out there. looking at the right one, it doesn't seem if there are any run numbers posted at all..... so anyone know what they're call volume actually is?

[hornpipe1]

Allright...5 yrs of voyerism, LA I gotta love ya.....through all this nonsense you have been the "voice of reason". Sorry if this doesn't make me popular but after 27 yrs in Fire/EMS he brings up some very interesting and good points. Go LA, I'm your #1 FAN.

[MemphisE34a]

Allright...5 yrs of voyerism, LA I gotta love ya.....through all this nonsense you have been the "voice of reason". Sorry if this doesn't make me popular but after 27 yrs in Fire/EMS he brings up some very interesting and good points. Go LA, I'm your #1 FAN.

Another website violation.

LA, your not allowed multiple usernames.

[FireMedic049]

According to the union's website, they've run 100 working structure fires so far this year.

So you really want me to beleive that a town of just over 12K has run 100 working structure fires through August, which projects out to over 140 for the year?

That's more than one structure fire per 100 residents. And your point other than showing you can do basic math? Plus it isn't a "town", it's a "city".

We are a town of 17K and we run under 20. My last department was a town of 24K and we ran under 30 for the year. And in my city of 24K we generally run 100+ fires a year.

Sorry, that number simply doesn't wash unless they have one hell of an arson problem.

You do realize that there are places in this country that are different than the places that you've lived at or been to?

I'm not sure off hand how they're doing currently, but yes they have a problem with arson. Just like the other "economically depressed" municipalities in the area. They also respond to fires outside of their city.

[FireMedic049]

I was looking at the wrong site for the numbers I threw out there. looking at the right one, it doesn't seem if there are any run numbers posted at all..... so anyone know what they're call volume actually is?

I don't have hard numbers off hand, but I believe "fire" calls are in the neighborhood of 1000 per year, give or take a few. I'm not quite sure on where the "6000" number came from since the only reference to that number I've come acrossed was for population density and haven't seen any other references to total call volume per year.


http://www.safeuniontown.com/oursituationmustread.html