Dept. taking away Leather Helmets PLEASE HELP!!!

[PaladinKnight]

Rescue101

As much as I hate it, I have to agree with you. I'm just trying to get a rise out of you of course.

Look, there isn't a thing wrong with having a preference. We all have our thing. For the guys that can make it work for them, I am happy for them. And I do appreciate your honest and kind words sir. I think we understand each other. And isn't it funny how we think we are just a bit better if we use our favorite stuff? Maybe we are...

But in areas that can no longer dedicate the dollars for the extras, it is only a money thing and has nothing to do with tradition. It is a sad truth that sometimes our tradition just escapes us due to forced change, and it isn't always an improvement. Those of us that have been around a while have seen more change than we ever thought possible.

I have been part of the movement that has resisted and stood on my principals and traditions. It was part of my rebel instinct to not give up so easily. Funny how we let our principals get in our own way at times.

You speak of the culture and you are correct. But is culture a part of tradition or is the opposite true? I think culture change is much slower than changes to the tradition.

When I was much younger, our Chief wanted a new truck, not because of the increased capability, but because everyone around us had one. If that was what it took to bring the dept into the 1970s, then great. Wrong reason but still accomplished something positive. But many of us were resistant to get rid of the old 1952 Ford. After all, we had our blood and sweat in that old truck. It didn't matter that the new truck had stuff we only read about... it was alien to us and anything that took much effort was pointless. No one had a clue about pressure or volume at that time, but we didn't have much of a water supply that made it an issue.

I look at todays new guys and they want Christmas everyday. That isn't culture or tradition driving that. We pass our culture and tradition down to the younger guys. Unfortunately, a lot has been lost over the years, some for the right reasons, but some for the wrong reasons.

To be honest, I was hoping I could find a study that proved leather to be superior. I wanted the guy (MAP) to win one. But I couldn't find anything more than what has been stated... opinion. That just doesn't hold up sometimes. If I had found the proof, then I might have been able to use that information myself and justify the added costs. So I don't think any of us won and this discussion did nothing to help the situation. But I don't think of it as time waisted.

So please consider yourself (and your guys) lucky that you still have your leathers. Many of us will just have to be a envious. But this doesn't mean I don't like my Ben. I just think leather is more forgiving and becomes part of you. May sound corny but just the way I think about it.

But as I said, we must move on, and economics very much drives what some consider progress.

It is much like the FIT5 issue... we all hope for a faster effective way to suppress the situation, but the jury is still out and we all have our opinion. Is it really progress or is it a pipe dream? Does this thing really defy what many of us were taught to believe? The concept is in line with our conventional thinking, but it just looks too easy. So how quick can we set aside our own idea of science and embrace this thing? We will see. In the meantime, we still have to fight for everything saved or gained.

I don't know about the pre-junk or post-junk eras that have been talked about. I just knew that my leather was going to last until I wore it out. That was true of everything. I also wore out coats, pants and gloves. I never thought it would last forever despite my best efforts to prolong its life. But I knew when it was done, and it was replaced.

Funny how important those little things are when you no longer have them. But I wish a I had a couple of my old coats back too. Perhaps it helps define what I was, perhaps it is just sentimental. When you get older, you tend to see things in a different prospective. So my advice is if you have the chance... keep everything you have now. It might mean something later.

Stay safe and take care of your leather.

[FyredUp]

I think it has more to do with the relative price. I'd rather burn up the department's plastic helmets than my leather helmet...

But there in lies the funny, or perhaps sad part, my plastic traditional Chieftan that I wear for my volly FD has seen a high number of practice burns. At least as many, if not more than my leathers ever did and it is still in fine shape. The Ben 2 that I wear when teching has seen MORE fire than my leathers and has not had any issue what so ever.

The last plastic helmet I melted was a Bullard salad bowl style one about 20 years ago.

[FyredUp]

Dunno what to tell you Brother Fyred. Guess I bought mine PRE-junk. I have TWO N6's as one gets beat up I rotate it to repaint and back again. Sometime I'll look at the build date and post it. Both are still in good shape. And NO,they aren't as good as they once were,maybe it's that California cow leather.You know,the happy cow stuff. T.C.

So when is pre-junk? 1981 when I bought my N5 New Yorker? Lasted 10 years and the back brim, as well as parts of the shell began to crack and break. 1992 when I bought my first N6A Sam Houston? Lasted 5 years and the back brim virtually disintergrated. Or 1997 when Cairns replaced the shell on that one? Lasted about 5 years and the back brim cracked and was falling apart.

If pre-junk means before MSA bought Cairns helmets then ALL of mine are pre-junk. So much for that excuse.

[Rescue101]

Well, you know what you just did for any argument that leather is better don't you? You shot it all to hell. A leather helmet can't stand the heat of repeated burn building usage without being damaged or destroyed but a plastic helmet is just fine. Funny thing is I can back that concept up too. My leathers fell apart and my Chieftan plastic traditional look a like has done fine for 10 years and I expect it to last to my retirement.

I've yet to see ANY helmet that LIKES burn buildings. Or lasts long in that enviornent. T.C.

[Rescue101]

T.C....

Is a leather helmet really that critical? I mean, to relate it to throwing away the constitution?

It's not like they are making you wear an SCBA or anything.

Nope Ken, it isn't. I LOVE Paladin responses but I don't mind cranking on him(or you)if I think I can get a rise or make a point. So I'll make a point. Not all Tradition is Good. But IF you don't study it and apply the lessons,that's BAD. A Leather isn't going to change anything there. Fact is,to some of us,the Leather represents a culture;One that is fading in a lot of places for any number of reasons. I FULLY intend to be in a Leather for the rest of my career. Does it make me a better FF? Nope,but to me(and mine) it stands for something:being the best we can be at what we do and honoring those that went before us. Most of "my" kids are in plastic,it's the Old dogs that are still in cow. And we will be until we retire. It's the LAST bit of the "Old School" that we're allowed to keep. I guess you could call it sentimental. When WE go(retire)the Helmet goes with us(we own them) and sits on the mantel until we both go to our final resting place. Just that simple. T.C.

[tree68]

Well, you know what you just did for any argument that leather is better don't you? You shot it all to hell. A leather helmet can't stand the heat of repeated burn building usage without being damaged or destroyed but a plastic helmet is just fine.

I think it has more to do with the relative price. I'd rather burn up the department's plastic helmets than my leather helmet...

[FyredUp]

Repeatedly teaching live fire does not fall under the "average firefighter's" career IMO. Burn buildings kill leather helmets. Most of us around here who have done any instructing have one plastic helmet that we use just for burns. After a while you get tired of buying leather shields and tetrahedrons.

Well, you know what you just did for any argument that leather is better don't you? You shot it all to hell. A leather helmet can't stand the heat of repeated burn building usage without being damaged or destroyed but a plastic helmet is just fine. Funny thing is I can back that concept up too. My leathers fell apart and my Chieftan plastic traditional look a like has done fine for 10 years and I expect it to last to my retirement.

[GTRider245]

Really? A properly cared for leather helmet will last an AVERAGE firefighter's career? You mean like cleaning it and keeping the bare spots touched up with paint? Golly, I did that, and my 2 Sam Houston N6A's fell apart on the back brim at about 5 years old each. Just for the record, NO, I did not heat them and bend the brim. I used them on my volly FD and as an instructor at the tech college. I sure loved wearing them but replacing a leather helmet every 5 years in just plain insane, as well as costly.

Not all tradition is bad, and for damn sure, not all tradition is good. Justifying wearing a helmet because of tradition just doesn't cut it.

Repeatedly teaching live fire does not fall under the "average firefighter's" career IMO. Burn buildings kill leather helmets. Most of us around here who have done any instructing have one plastic helmet that we use just for burns. After a while you get tired of buying leather shields and tetrahedrons.

[PaladinKnight]

I think the longevity depends on exposure. Everything is relevant.

I worked on both busy Truck and Engine Companies over the years. They didn't seem to last more than 3 to 5 years. Perhaps that was my fault, perhaps it wasn't. Perhaps it was just the way it was. Not trying to make a call on that. Part of it might be what I consider safe for me, versus what some else may accept. I lost a good part of my scalp, so I guess I became a bit picky.

If I had one today, it would last until the end of time since the exposure is... limited.

I guess I am too tight with my money, and the budget as well.

[ChiefKN]

Why don't we throw out the Constitution while we're at it.We're making a pretty good start. T.C.

T.C....

Is a leather helmet really that critical? I mean, to relate it to throwing away the constitution?

It's not like they are making you wear an SCBA or anything.

[ChiefKN]

Its pretty sad that many of you don't support Leather Lids.

I don't have an opinion either way except I'd never put out money for a helmet.

There is no real advantage either way. Both will protect your noggin.

As for "tradition"... I don't buy it. Literally, in this case.

[Rescue101]

Really? A properly cared for leather helmet will last an AVERAGE firefighter's career? You mean like cleaning it and keeping the bare spots touched up with paint? Golly, I did that, and my 2 Sam Houston N6A's fell apart on the back brim at about 5 years old each. Just for the record, NO, I did not heat them and bend the brim. I used them on my volly FD and as an instructor at the tech college. I sure loved wearing them but replacing a leather helmet every 5 years in just plain insane, as well as costly.

Not all tradition is bad, and for damn sure, not all tradition is good. Justifying wearing a helmet because of tradition just doesn't cut it.

Dunno what to tell you Brother Fyred. Guess I bought mine PRE-junk. I have TWO N6's as one gets beat up I rotate it to repaint and back again. Sometime I'll look at the build date and post it. Both are still in good shape. And NO,they aren't as good as they once were,maybe it's that California cow leather.You know,the happy cow stuff. T.C.

[PaladinKnight]

I will admit, after reading the first couple pages and seeing the direction the discussion was heading...

You are a scholar and gentleman sir... and have restored my faith in the ages. Thank you!

And just to keep on topic, we wear department issued leathers, if for no other reason than 130+ years of tradition. Always have, always will.

Tradition is a wonderful thing. I have no issue if your department has the funding and makes the decision to carry on.

[mcwops]

He received answers and suggestions.... he just didn't like them. That was not anyones fault but his own.

I will admit, after reading the first couple pages and seeing the direction the discussion was heading (POV lights anyone, ), I just scanned the rest so I may have missed some of the details.

And just to keep on topic, we wear department issued leathers, if for no other reason than 130+ years of tradition. Always have, always will.

[PaladinKnight]

What is the point of having a forum for people to ask questions if all you are going to do is get snotty with them and send them somewhere else? Your answer could cover almost every thread in the forum. Just like momma always said, if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything.

Was I snotty?

I am so very sorry about that. Snotty was not on my list of attitudes this week. I will update the list so I can include it in my report.



We tried to help the poor lad, but his problem was with his reading comprehension.

Momma also said when someone tries to kick your dog, unchain the dog.


I started out respectful and made a few suggestions, as others also did. It became clear that he had boxed himself into a position he was not going to win. He could not accept that and assumed that I and others were against leather helmets.

With all of the collective knowledge and talent around here, don't you think that if there was a definitive study that proved his point, someone would have rescued him?

How can I or anyone pull something out of thin air when it does not exist. It comes down to opinions and policy. That has been my position from the beginning.

Just as this issue had finally died... you come on here and post your opinion. But your concerned about the guy that created the issue. I do not understand this at all.


Listen Sonny... why don't you find the answer for him. I really don't have time to cover this crap again.


To answer your question:

What is the point of having a forum for people to ask questions if all you are going to do is get snotty with them and send them somewhere else?

He received answers and suggestions.... he just didn't like them. That was not anyones fault but his own.

I do have to give you some points for taking up his losing cause. It shows you have some sand. I'd just be careful where you use it in the future.

(sand=guts)

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Fyred: I wore leather for many years and I never had one last more than 3 to 5 years. Like you, when the dept didn't want to buy leather anymore, I didn't think the cost was worth it to me. But I sure like them. I wish I had kept the last one.


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