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DSPA: Dry Sprinkler Powder Aerosol, FIT: Fire Intervention Tool

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  • #46
    Having given some more thought to this thread and some other reports of the FIT5, I have a concern with the number of "duds' they've put out there. It seems in many cases the first FIT5 has failed to arm. While at first glance this may appear to not be a big deal, short of the $995 investment, which we can assume they'll replace, it could very well be a major issue. First, more likely than not, the chief's buggy will have only one of these devices, due to cost. Second, we must assume most deployments will be via an outside window, rather than through an interior door. So the question is, how does one control the broken window once you toss this red metal anchor in? The opening is now allowing the fire to self-vent, adding oxygen and potentially speeding fire growth, when the deployment fails. This of course would be a concern even with a successfully deployment if your timing wasn't considered and the re-ignition and growth occurs before an engine arrives or can get a line stretched.

    On the other side, I'm still not convinced the victim in the deployment area is a valid concern? Viability is the issue here. If the fire indicated deployment of the device, is it not likely that victims are not viable? We're not thinking of tossing these on wastepaper basket fires are we? We're talking about deploying them into the fire room/area, not just into a smoky door or window. Heavy fire, black fire, heavy smoke under pressure, high heat? Not wispy lazy light smoke. I'd hope the people carrying these devices had a little knowledge about fire behavior and could reasonably evaluate the factors to determine if deployment is necessary or not. We'd be concerned steaming viable victims in the same area, we're talking about deploying these.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by neiowa View Post
      http://www.arasafety.com/ara-interac...nt-stories.htm

      I bet I can find a phone # for any of the FD listed within 60seconds on goggle. There's you homework. Call some and give us a report.

      I got a email in last few day from one of our suppliers that said closeout on old units (with a Pelican case) for sale price as new units with triggering system now out.

      Not in our budget as too many other high priority projects (such as narrowband radios) that need $ but maybe some day. Or if found a restricted grant that would work for one I'd do that.
      Ok you said you can find the phone numbers, do it and report back with your findings.
      Last edited by nameless; 08-18-2010, 04:36 PM.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
        Having given some more thought to this thread and some other reports of the FIT5, I have a concern with the number of "duds' they've put out there. It seems in many cases the first FIT5 has failed to arm. While at first glance this may appear to not be a big deal, short of the $995 investment, which we can assume they'll replace, it could very well be a major issue. First, more likely than not, the chief's buggy will have only one of these devices, due to cost. Second, we must assume most deployments will be via an outside window, rather than through an interior door. So the question is, how does one control the broken window once you toss this red metal anchor in? The opening is now allowing the fire to self-vent, adding oxygen and potentially speeding fire growth, when the deployment fails. This of course would be a concern even with a successfully deployment if your timing wasn't considered and the re-ignition and growth occurs before an engine arrives or can get a line stretched.

        The dud issue has supposedly been resolved on the newer models with a different style of firing pin, more similar to a grenade/handgun. You pull the pin, and a firing pin strikes. I was told the old style is comparable to having a match head on the end of a string, and running it through "sandpaper". You can see why there would be issues.

        I also see what you're saying about controlling the window, self-venting, and allowing the fire to potentially grow. Again, like a majority of things, it's risk vs. benefit, in my opinion. Do you throw it, and hope it works? Or just stand by and watch the place burn to the ground before an engine company arrives?


        On the other side, I'm still not convinced the victim in the deployment area is a valid concern? Viability is the issue here. If the fire indicated deployment of the device, is it not likely that victims are not viable?

        That was one of my concerns as well. At first, with the warning about not throwing it in a fire where there are viable victims, I thought that it would be pointless. But then talking to the salesman, and watching at which point in the fires growth that he tossed it in, that viable victims aren't really a concern at that stage of the fire.


        We're not thinking of tossing these on wastepaper basket fires are we? We're talking about deploying them into the fire room/area, not just into a smoky door or window. Heavy fire, black fire, heavy smoke under pressure, high heat? Not wispy lazy light smoke.

        IMO, correct. This would not be a thing to deploy on a wastebasket fire, or when all you see is a smoky doorway, or wispy lazy smoke. It would be a thing to deploy when the room was fully/almost full involved, to delay the spread of the fire to another room in the house. But, that being said, how do you know it hasn't already spread? I guess you don't, but it would be a judgment call of the arriving officer on when to throw it. If he rolls up, and the whole house is on fire, there's no way it should be thrown. If he shows up and you've got fire and smoke blowing out of more than one window, do you throw it? Do you throw two of them? Or do you wait for the engine company to arrive?

        I'd hope the people carrying these devices had a little knowledge about fire behavior and could reasonably evaluate the factors to determine if deployment is necessary or not. We'd be concerned steaming viable victims in the same area, we're talking about deploying these.

        Agree, 100%


        I definitely want to see it in use again, set up in a couple different scenarios.
        1. Actual furniture. (dresser, bed, couch, entertainment center etc, something other than hay and pallets.)
        2. In a room with bigger area, just to see how much space this thing is actually effective in
        3. I want to put it up against a 20 pound dry chem, in similarly set up rooms. Toss this thing in, see how effective it is. Empty a 20 pound dry chem in the window, see how effective that is.
        "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

        "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

        Comment


        • #49
          FyredUp, Chenzo, if the opportunity arises for you to be able to test this device again, let me know. I would love to make the short drive to see it first hand.
          I think part of what makes some resistive is the original "advocates" for the device.
          I think it would be interesting to see, especially with the scenario that Chenzo was looking at.

          Keep it safe out there.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Jasper 45 View Post
            FyredUp, Chenzo, if the opportunity arises for you to be able to test this device again, let me know. I would love to make the short drive to see it first hand.
            I think part of what makes some resistive is the original "advocates" for the device.
            I think it would be interesting to see, especially with the scenario that Chenzo was looking at.

            Keep it safe out there.
            I agree with your thought on the original advocates for the device. And I will definitely let you know if we get an oppurtunity to test it out again.
            "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

            "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

            Comment


            • #51
              Well, Chenzo stole most of my thunder here but let me add a few things.

              Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
              Having given some more thought to this thread and some other reports of the FIT5, I have a concern with the number of "duds' they've put out there. It seems in many cases the first FIT5 has failed to arm. While at first glance this may appear to not be a big deal, short of the $995 investment, which we can assume they'll replace, it could very well be a major issue. First, more likely than not, the chief's buggy will have only one of these devices, due to cost. Supposedly fixed with an entirely new triggering device. I would like to see a new one in the next demo, not old stock. Second, we must assume most deployments will be via an outside window, rather than through an interior door. So the question is, how does one control the broken window once you toss this red metal anchor in? The opening is now allowing the fire to self-vent, adding oxygen and potentially speeding fire growth, when the deployment fails. This of course would be a concern even with a successfully deployment if your timing wasn't considered and the re-ignition and growth occurs before an engine arrives or can get a line stretched. I think if you limited the size of the opening by breaking out only the upper or lower portion of the window that it would still effectively knock down the fire. Remember in the demo we did the bedroom door was missing so there was a 30 by 80 opening and the fire was still knocked down.



              On the other side, I'm still not convinced the victim in the deployment area is a valid concern? Viability is the issue here. If the fire indicated deployment of the device, is it not likely that victims are not viable? I agree. If the room is fully involved, or post flashover, the odds of a viable victim are zero anyways. At least in the fire room. Using the device may buy enough time to effect rescue of others still in the home. We're not thinking of tossing these on wastepaper basket fires are we? We're talking about deploying them into the fire room/area, not just into a smoky door or window. Heavy fire, black fire, heavy smoke under pressure, high heat? Not wispy lazy light smoke. I'd hope the people carrying these devices had a little knowledge about fire behavior and could reasonably evaluate the factors to determine if deployment is necessary or not. We'd be concerned steaming viable victims in the same area, we're talking about deploying these. My thought process says that this would be deployed ONLY on actual fire and not a wastebasket fire.
              Again, I don't see it replacing a hoseline if one is available. Well, perhaps initially in a basement fire if it works as well as I have been told by a fire fightrer whose FD deployed one on a basement fire.

              It is just another tool, if you want to try it and see if it is for you then you will. If your mind is completely closed to any possibility of this device, then you won't.

              Stay safe either way.
              Crazy, but that's how it goes
              Millions of people living as foes
              Maybe it's not too late
              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Jasper 45 View Post
                FyredUp, Chenzo, if the opportunity arises for you to be able to test this device again, let me know. I would love to make the short drive to see it first hand.
                I think part of what makes some resistive is the original "advocates" for the device.
                I think it would be interesting to see, especially with the scenario that Chenzo was looking at.

                Keep it safe out there.
                Hey Brother! I would love to have you out here in the sticks if we get a chance to demo one of these. Culture shock baby!!
                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                Millions of people living as foes
                Maybe it's not too late
                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                Comment


                • #53
                  My only thought on breaking out a small section of window is that while it makes absolute sense, it's likely not that simple. Windows in conditions we're likely to deploy a device probably will have already been superheated to near failure, so what we could normally keep small may not work out for us. In the end the real issue was the rate of failure to arm, which it sounds like has been changed to a much more reliable system.

                  As I noted from the beginning, while I'm skeptical, it appears that the idea is with some merit and many of the supposed issues are cases of people trying to find reasons not to use the device by elevating concerns that actually are either true for any extinguishing agent/system or not really as big a deal as they're purported. The biggest concern to me is overselling the potential of the product and using it as a stop gap to staffing problems or in place of proper tactics.

                  I think that having skeptical firefighters try these and make their own conclusions helps validate some of the concerns as well as alleviate some. Thanks for sharing, we can be confident that your views are unbiased.

                  Comment

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