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DSPA: Dry Sprinkler Powder Aerosol, FIT: Fire Intervention Tool

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  • #16
    Originally posted by tree68 View Post
    It's important to note that dry chemical extinguishers don't cool the fire - they interrupt the combustion. IMHO, the only reason the temperature would be reduced by the FIT would be because the fire was (theoretically) no longer burning. Any residual heat would remain.

    I've heard of fires doused with a dry chem extinguisher re-igniting when more air was introduced.

    That said - it's still a potential tool for situations where water isn't available yet, as was discussed at length in a previous thread as well.
    Any honest firefighter will tell you they also have had a fire that was doused with water reignite when more air was introduced.

    Like I have stated previously the salesman said they would be happy to come up and demonstrate the device for us if we had a practice controlled burn in a house. If we have a house burn I fully intend to take them up on that offer.

    To me the biggest obstacles to its success are the ability to control openings in the fire area AND the cost. Even if insurance companies will reimburse the cost I know of some smaller volly FD's that $995 would severely deplete their equipment budget for the year.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

    Comment


    • #17
      I'm glad you got to see one in action. I would like to hear if y'all do any more testing.

      Like chenzo said I really want to see the difference in the FIT and a 20 pound dry chem.

      Thanks for the info.
      Get the first line into operation.

      Comment


      • #18
        Did you video it???

        If so can you post it somewhere????
        P
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZdEH...e_gdata_player

        Comment


        • #19
          If the deployment is from a Chief, then more than likely it will be an exterior deployment through a window. Unless you have a Chief officer that cheats interior on his own.

          Just a couple of thoughts/questions using that scenario:

          • Maintaining the compartment would be guesswork(without knowing interior layout or if doors are closed, etc)? In addition, this also restricts this to "closed" rooms, like bedrooms, bathrooms, utilities and small basements. Kitchens are usually part of an open floor plan.
          • What do you do if unsure of victims?
          • The "contents" were pallets and hay, I wonder how this would change with actual room contents?
          • Any sense of the intensity of reignition?
          Last edited by ChiefKN; 08-16-2010, 05:59 PM.
          I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

          "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

          "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by fire49 View Post
            Did you video it???

            If so can you post it somewhere????
            P
            Sorry, no video. I guarantee if I get another chance at a demo I will try to get some video on it.
            Crazy, but that's how it goes
            Millions of people living as foes
            Maybe it's not too late
            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
              If the deployment is from a Chief, then more than likely it will be an exterior deployment through a window. Unless you have a Chief officer that cheats interior on his own.

              Just a couple of thoughts/questions using that scenario:

              • Maintaining the compartment would be guesswork(without knowing interior layout or if doors are closed, etc)? In addition, this also restricts this to "closed" rooms, like bedrooms, bathrooms, utilities and small basements. Kitchens are usually part of an open floor plan.
              • What do you do if unsure of victims?
              • The "contents" were pallets and hay, I wonder how this would change with actual room contents?
              • Any sense of the intensity of reignition?
              Maintaining the compartment would most definitely be guesswork. And as stated, we had a full door open, and it still managed to suppress the fire. BUT, if you don't have another one, or an engine VERY shortly behind, as soon as the powder settles and air is reintroduced, it flares back up, and you're back to square one.

              Victims-depending on the circumstances of the fire, my guess is any victims are probably already deceased. If you happen to come along a fire that hasn't developed very far yet, then IMO, it's a game of chance. If you toss that in a room where there are potentially still victims that are alive, I feel you have put the nail in their coffin. It pushes the heat down, and I can't imagine the powder is good for the respiratory system.

              I would be curious to see how it would handle a typical bedroom, or living room, with furniture/clothing/dresser/cabinets etc as well. If we get the oppurtunity to use it again, I hope we can set up a more realistic bedroom.

              We tossed it in the room when the fire was fairly close to flashover. It knocked it down, but when air was reintroduced, it took off fairly intense again. It was back up the wall, almost working it's way across the ceiling.

              Hope this helped answer your questions. Maybe Fyred can offer some more insight if I didn't cover enough.
              "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

              "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                If the deployment is from a Chief, then more than likely it will be an exterior deployment through a window. Unless you have a Chief officer that cheats interior on his own.

                Just a couple of thoughts/questions using that scenario:

                • Maintaining the compartment would be guesswork(without knowing interior layout or if doors are closed, etc)? In addition, this also restricts this to "closed" rooms, like bedrooms, bathrooms, utilities and small basements. Kitchens are usually part of an open floor plan.

                  Maintaining the compartment in an interior is always guesswork anyways. You may encounter a bedroom and assume since the windows are still in and you still have the door that the compact is "intact" when in fact there is an interconnecting bathroom that both doors are open on.

                  The point I made was that despite the doorway being open because there was no door, the fire was knocked down. It wasn't out, but then again I did remove the plywood covering the window to ventilate before the fire began to grow again. I can only speculate as to what would have happened IF venting had not occurred.

                  If the exteriror openings are minimal I think it would still at the very least slow the fire if not knock it down even in a large open space like a kitchen area.


                • What do you do if unsure of victims?

                  If I am unsure of the location of the victims I very well may not deploy it. However, if I have a room that is fully involved there would be no survivable victims in that room anyways. I may deploy it then to hope to keep the fire in check to allow time for a quick search or to buy time for the engine to arrive.
                • The "contents" were pallets and hay, I wonder how this would change with actual room contents?

                  Remember this was a mobile home with wall paper, that funky "whatever the heck" it is ceiling material, a bi-fold door closet with the doors open, so the doors were added fuel load. Was it like a room with regular furniture and belongings in it? Nope, but the fire was substantial.

                  I spoke to several people at this fire school who have deployed these for real in room fires and basement fires and the most water used to overhaul after deployment was claimed to be 50 gallons.

                • Any sense of the intensity of reignition?

                  Again, the circumstances were the hallway door was not there so the agent was not contained, the fire was knocked down and when I ventilated it grew back in intensity. How intense? It was hot in the room but the hoseline was worked from a standing position and the fire was killed with a few seconds of water application. We did do massive hydraulic overhaul of the hay because it was the last burn of the day and we were not supposed to burn the trailers to the ground.
                All this is my OPINION based on MY OBSERVATION of this device in action. I do not claim to be an expert of any sort regarding this device. I guess I just see its potential in the right circumstances to save property and perhaps lives.
                Last edited by FyredUp; 08-16-2010, 07:02 PM.
                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                Millions of people living as foes
                Maybe it's not too late
                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                Comment


                • #23
                  My question is if comparing apples to apples, what do you do if you're unsure of victims and you'e armed with a hoseline? Steam to the lungs likely will kill as fast as dry chemical.

                  Interesting thread Fyred, nice to hear from a firefighter with no stake in the company.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
                    My question is if comparing apples to apples, what do you do if you're unsure of victims and you'e armed with a hoseline? Steam to the lungs likely will kill as fast as dry chemical.

                    Interesting thread Fyred, nice to hear from a firefighter with no stake in the company.
                    Based on our previous discussions, I'd have to say that until proven otherwise, if there's a hoseline available, the FIT will stay in its usual resting place.
                    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                      All this is my OPINION based on MY OBSERVATION of this device in action. I do not claim to be an expert of any sort regarding this device. I guess I just see its potential in the right circumstances to save property and perhaps lives.
                      Your opinion is one that I would value. I'm just struggling with my own doubts and concerns about this product.

                      I do appreciate your candor and your thoughts on this.
                      I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                      "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                      "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                        Based on our previous discussions, I'd have to say that until proven otherwise, if there's a hoseline available, the FIT will stay in its usual resting place.
                        Oh I'd definitely agree there, but my point is if you suspect victims in the fire area deploying the extinguishing agent, be it FIT or water, will likely have negative effects on their lives.

                        My comments are based on the question of what would you do if you were unsure of potential victims. It seems the adverse effects of the dry chem might be limited to the deployment area, thus possible victims outside this area are likely no worse off. Your options are very limited if you believe the victim is in the fire area. Enter an near certain peril, deploy the FIT5 and hope they don't inhale (like Clinton) or maybe try to effect some ventilation to allow for some heat release, while praying the engine is just around the corner. If we had a hoseline and suspected or saw a victim in the fire room/area we'd go in for the grab trying not to flow water in the compartment for fear of steaming them.

                        I also wonder if it's worth being hung up on the re-ignition problems. Unless this is very rapid in most cases, then I can't help but think that stopping the forward progress for any amount of time is likely to at least be in the plus column. After all we attack using tank water with the potential of running out, though I'd admit that water at least cools the area and fuel likely further slowing any re-ignition.

                        I'm in no way suggesting adjusting tactics to allow this device any role where proper equipment is on scene, but it's hard to believe that anything is not better than something in lieu of a charged line being present.
                        Last edited by RFDACM02; 08-16-2010, 08:21 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Chenzo View Post
                          I would be curious to see how it would handle a typical bedroom, or living room, with furniture/clothing/dresser/cabinets etc as well. If we get the oppurtunity to use it again, I hope we can set up a more realistic bedroom.
                          That would be one of my other questions as well. Just based on the mechanism of action of the FIT, how much would it's effectiveness be impaired if it deploys behind a couch, or underneath a bed or table?

                          I am very glad we are getting a non-sales-person account of it. Thanks FyredUp
                          "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MarcusKspn View Post
                            That would be one of my other questions as well. Just based on the mechanism of action of the FIT, how much would it's effectiveness be impaired if it deploys behind a couch, or underneath a bed or table?

                            I am very glad we are getting a non-sales-person account of it. Thanks FyredUp
                            That's also where I run into an issue. What if you throw it in a room, and it happens to slide under the couch, because you can't see where it went? How effective would it be in that situation? In our situation, it was thrown just to the side of the pile of hay and pallets, so it had a nice open environment to deploy in.

                            Many unanswered questions, I'm hoping we can get a house burn going, and try it again, and get some of these questions answered.
                            "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

                            "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
                              I also wonder if it's worth being hung up on the re-ignition problems. Unless this is very rapid in most cases, then I can't help but think that stopping the forward progress for any amount of time is likely to at least be in the plus column. After all we attack using tank water with the potential of running out, though I'd admit that water at least cools the area and fuel likely further slowing any re-ignition.
                              You raise a very valid point, that I guess I just chose to overlook.
                              With the engine right around the corners, I foresee this being a valuable tool, IF it works as it's supposed to. What I fear I guess, is a rural department, where the chief responds POV, tosses this in, and expects it to hold back the fire for anywhere from a 10-20 minute response time from an engine. I think that yes, it would help, but if he only had one, and only deployed one, would knocking the fire back for maybe 5 minutes do any good when an engine is still 5-15 minutes out after re-ignition?

                              I know alot of this is rambling, but I'm also trying to spark concerns and questions that can be brought up if/when we get the oppurtunity to see this in action again.
                              "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

                              "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                First of all let me say this, I am NOT advocating replacing a hoseline with the DPSA-FIT.

                                Secondly, I see it as a tool to be used when an officer, or first arriving firefighter, arrives on scene and an engine company has not arrived yet.

                                Thirdly, I suppose you would have to determine if conditions in the fire room were survivable before you deployed the device. The sales info on the site of the fire equipment company that demoed it for us says the agent is non-toxic to victims and first responders. My assumption is that is just the extinguishing agent itself, not after being deployed.

                                Fourthly, I agree that I wonder if worrying about re-ignition is worth it. Because even if it does re-ignite the time you bought is still an advantage and may buy enough time to make a rescue or to an engine company to get set up and get water on the fire.

                                All I am saying is my previously closed mind is more open to the possibilities of this device in certain circumstance.
                                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                                Millions of people living as foes
                                Maybe it's not too late
                                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                                Comment

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