Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Can we stop dying or getting seriously hurt?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • ChiefKN
    replied
    Originally posted by Catch22 View Post
    I once had a coach that despised showboating when you scored. He used the line "act like you've scored before". There are a number of firefighters that get jacked every time they hear the fire tones go off. We're supposed to be professionals (even vollies claim to be "unpaid" professionals), so act like you've been to a fire before.
    I agree with this sentiment a lot. I've said this before, myself.

    Nothing worse than a whole lot of hooping and hollering when someone's house is burning down...

    Really ticks me off.

    Leave a comment:


  • Catch22
    replied
    Originally posted by tree68 View Post
    While I agree the members must be held accountable for their driving and should have training, there is no accounting for adrenaline. Even a normally safe and sane driver can get a little crazy under the right circumstances. We can caution our new members, train them, etc, but there is that one time...
    I'll disagree to a point on this one. While you may not be able to account for adrenalin, you CAN provide means of controlling it. NFPA 1500 outlines a response procedure to do just that. Stop at all signaled/signed intersections, slow down at ALL intersections, forbid running over the speed limit, etc.

    Slow these guys down in both POV's and apparatus, and you knock out that "we have to get there NOW" mentality, and therefore reduce adrenalin.

    I once had a coach that despised showboating when you scored. He used the line "act like you've scored before". There are a number of firefighters that get jacked every time they hear the fire tones go off. We're supposed to be professionals (even vollies claim to be "unpaid" professionals), so act like you've been to a fire before.

    The biggest way to control adrenalin is experience. How many seasoned vets do you see get jacked up over going to a fire? They don't because they've done it before and they act like it.

    Leave a comment:


  • cozmosis
    replied
    Originally posted by tree68 View Post
    If there is something disappointing about the linked USFA charts, it's that the rate of LODDs per 100,000 fire incidents has been rising over the past few years.
    You can't be good at things you don't do very often. The high school football team practices at least five days a week for a game they play for only few hours on Friday night. They even practice in the spring when they know they have months until the next game. Many of our departments aren't even getting one fire a week. Some don't get one fire a month. How often are we practicing? Not nearly enough.

    This is one of the biggest things that worries me about my own department. The problem we have is that we run two engines with a minimum of two FFs each. We can't take companies out of service for training. We have a burn building, but if we're there, we have to still respond to alarms. It limits a lot of what you can do and the level of realism you can train with.

    Leave a comment:


  • tree68
    replied
    Originally posted by nameless View Post
    saying you won't give your members physicals or hold them to certain physical standards because of cost/manpower, is akin to not doing maintence on your apparatus and driving it with no brakes because the shoes are "too expensive".
    OK. We'll just have to schedule another bake sale.

    Leave a comment:


  • nameless
    replied
    saying you won't give your members physicals or hold them to certain physical standards because of cost/manpower, is akin to not doing maintence on your apparatus and driving it with no brakes because the shoes are "too expensive".

    Leave a comment:


  • RFD21C
    replied
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We will never eliminate all deaths. That being said, we can eliminate a significant percentage by simply changing the culture, and changing how we look at what we do.

    1. Seatbelts. No excuses.

    2. The emergency will still be there, even if we arrive 2 minutes later. Slow down to a maxcimum of 10 mph over the speed limit. Stop at every red light, stop sign and yield sign. Use cold responses for non-emergent runs.

    3. Minimum realistic intial training standards that meet the needs for your area.

    4. Realistic continueing training requirements.

    5. Accept the fact that civialins will die. Accept the fact the most often we cannot prevent civilians from dying.

    6. Accept the fact that property will burn and no firefighters life is ever worth property.

    7. Fire prevention and public education reduces fires. Putting money into prevention is more efficiant than response.

    Notice how medical screening uis not on that list. While I do beleive this is also needed, the questions of how the bulk of the departments in this country are going to pay for it, and how they will replace the manpower that likely will be lost, especially in older rural departments, needs to be answered first before we start that process.
    I agree with most everything you have pointed out. However, not on the medical screening part. Yes some departments will never be able to afford it. These are the same dpeartments that struggle to pay for fuel in the trucks after a run.

    The departments that i am talking about are the ones that can and do not make it a priority. As for the manpower and staffing issues associated with medicals. They must be implemented slowly, obviously you cannot cut your manpower to the point of a skeleton crew. It is a cultural issue that we must change in the fire service. We need to understand that in order to be fit for duty it is a combination of mental and pshyical.

    It continues to amaze me the amount of resources and money we spend on "saving our own". We will place RIT packs on all the units. Send every member to hours and hours of RIT training. Have countless disscussions and forum threads on it. Whilie all of this is needed and i am in no ways trying to say the above mentioned is bad. However we are MISSING THE NUMBER 1 CAUSE OF LODDS. We are only addressing a small portion of the issue.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChiefKN
    replied
    Originally posted by tree68 View Post
    To what? While some volunteer departments have personnel doing shifts in-station, the vast majority do not. Thus all members must "respond POV" simply to get to the station.
    If they are "responding" (I don't care where), then why is this such a crazy idea?

    While I agree the members must be held accountable for their driving and should have training, there is no accounting for adrenaline. Even a normally safe and sane driver can get a little crazy under the right circumstances. We can caution our new members, train them, etc, but there is that one time...
    No excuse. If they are found to be "a little crazy", they should be disciplined.

    This isn't a joke. I've responded to more fatal mva's then I wish to remember, and I don't EVER want to respond to one involving a brother or sister.

    Leave a comment:


  • tree68
    replied
    Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Is there training before this person is allowed to respond POV?
    To what? While some volunteer departments have personnel doing shifts in-station, the vast majority do not. Thus all members must "respond POV" simply to get to the station.

    While I agree the members must be held accountable for their driving and should have training, there is no accounting for adrenaline. Even a normally safe and sane driver can get a little crazy under the right circumstances. We can caution our new members, train them, etc, but there is that one time...

    Leave a comment:


  • ChiefKN
    replied
    Originally posted by engineeremtp View Post
    I fully understand the POV accidents are for the most part out of anyone but the individuals hands.
    Yes and no...

    Does the department hold individuals accountable for their driving? Are complaints fully investigated? Is there a mechanism to limit these responses? Is there training before this person is allowed to respond POV?

    I realize this is a complicated one, but it's not completely out of the department's hands.
    Last edited by ChiefKN; 07-27-2010, 02:16 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • CaptOldTimer
    replied
    See the latest posting in the LODD section for Rocky Mount, VA.



    Leave a comment:


  • engineeremtp
    replied
    No....????

    If you bother to review NIOSH LODD investigation reports it's easy to see that roughly 70% of them involve medical and vehicle accident causes.

    It boils down to leadership. And leadership only.

    If you are an officer or senior firefighter, your #1 priority is getting the rig you are in charge of to the scene in one piece. ( the people who called 911 in the first place NEED that truck or ambulance to show up )

    I fully understand the POV accidents are for the most part out of anyone but the individuals hands.

    As for the medical causes- we all know brothers that aren't in the best of shape. What do we do about it?
    1. there are costs
    2. there is apathy
    3. there is an individuals rights
    4. union issues

    And I know many more.

    It takes the right leadership to have an appreciation for this issue alone and come up with ways to run a physical fitness program. It will prevent some of these LODD causes though unfortunately not all.

    Fire suppression related LODD, in my opinion, is probably the hardest factor to reduce. Training is the key but there still are way to many variables.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChiefKN
    replied
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We will never eliminate all deaths. That being said, we can eliminate a significant percentage by simply changing the culture, and changing how we look at what we do.

    1. Seatbelts. No excuses.

    2. The emergency will still be there, even if we arrive 2 minutes later. Slow down to a maxcimum of 10 mph over the speed limit. Stop at every red light, stop sign and yield sign. Use cold responses for non-emergent runs.

    3. Minimum realistic intial training standards that meet the needs for your area.

    4. Realistic continueing training requirements.

    5. Accept the fact that civialins will die. Accept the fact the most often we cannot prevent civilians from dying.

    6. Accept the fact that property will burn and no firefighters life is ever worth property.

    7. Fire prevention and public education reduces fires. Putting money into prevention is more efficiant than response.

    Notice how medical screening uis not on that list. While I do beleive this is also needed, the questions of how the bulk of the departments in this country are going to pay for it, and how they will replace the manpower that likely will be lost, especially in older rural departments, needs to be answered first before we start that process.
    You'll probably get clobbered over this post, because that's what happens here.. But you aren't too far off.

    I do think that you are wrong to hold back recommending medical screening because of the issues you outline. Similar issues could be raised with the education requirements that you allude to.

    The reality is those issues will never be addressed until the screenings are mandatory. Just like the respiratory standards and most other standards.

    The time is now.

    Leave a comment:


  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    We will never eliminate all deaths. That being said, we can eliminate a significant percentage by simply changing the culture, and changing how we look at what we do.

    1. Seatbelts. No excuses.

    2. The emergency will still be there, even if we arrive 2 minutes later. Slow down to a maxcimum of 10 mph over the speed limit. Stop at every red light, stop sign and yield sign. Use cold responses for non-emergent runs.

    3. Minimum realistic intial training standards that meet the needs for your area.

    4. Realistic continueing training requirements.

    5. Accept the fact that civialins will die. Accept the fact the most often we cannot prevent civilians from dying.

    6. Accept the fact that property will burn and no firefighters life is ever worth property.

    7. Fire prevention and public education reduces fires. Putting money into prevention is more efficiant than response.

    Notice how medical screening uis not on that list. While I do beleive this is also needed, the questions of how the bulk of the departments in this country are going to pay for it, and how they will replace the manpower that likely will be lost, especially in older rural departments, needs to be answered first before we start that process.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bones42
    replied
    Trying to prevent all deaths is a noble effort, but a very difficult one. Focusing on 1 or 2 leading causes and rectifying those situations is more doable. Then move on to the next leading causes.

    Will it ever get to 0? In my opinion, no. But I (we) can take the baby steps necessary to get us closer to that.

    Leave a comment:


  • fyreline
    replied
    It's a somewhat similar situation covered by this observation on war:

    Rule #1 is: Young men die.
    Rule #2 is: You can't always change rule number one.

    While it's true that we can't always change Rule #1, sometimes we can, and that should always be our aim. Over my 37+ years as a professional firefighter we have greatly increased the safety of the responding firefighter through advances in vehicle safety, improved turnout gear, better and more reliable communications, and training, training, training. At the end of the day you cannot impose total safety on an inherently unsafe environment such as the fireground. It becomes incumbent upon our fire service leaders and officers to create a culture of safety that supercedes the "cowboy attitudes" of those who think that great risk should always be a part of every alarm. This does not mean buying into the "nannyfication" of the fire service - it is not only possible to continue having an aggressive attitude, it is imperative that you do if you want to have motivated crews and successful outcomes. Just don't needlessly risk your men to do so. This is the point where experience becomes your friend. I can't tell you how many times I've had a crew on a line three rooms deep asking me for "Just one more minute, Chief, and I think we've got it". Sorry, Loo, you've HAD your minute and I can see some things (or have them reported to me) that give me information you don't have. Do I want to give these guys the extra minute they'e asking for? You bet I do, but I won't. They're operating on the fire's clock, and I'm keeping the time. Right now it's time to go. RIGHT NOW.


    Safety on the fireground is a much-discussed and much-misunderstood topic. As much as we have made today's firefighter safer than his counterpart from years ago, someone is still going to have to drag that line down that burning hallway . . . and as long as that's true, we will have firefighter injuries and deaths. Even having said that, we should NEVER simply accept this as inevitable, and every loss diminishes and should anger us all. Not all of them can be prevented - but many of them can. Work smarter, not harder. Train like you work. Know your crews, especially you chief officers. Listen to the building, and watch the clock. Knowledge = Life.
    Last edited by fyreline; 07-27-2010, 09:38 AM.

    Leave a comment:

300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

Collapse

Upper 300x250

Collapse

Taboola

Collapse

Leader

Collapse
Working...
X