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  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    You say there are approx 80 mutual aid calls per year and the proposal is to bill about $1000 for each. That's an estimated cost of $80,000 to the county. That will buy a lot of rescue equipment for the rural departments. Offer them some training also and everyone benefiets.

    Same thought here.

    Plan A -Wjth that 80K buy 3 full sets of tools for three vollie departments and assign them each specific districts to run all MVAs in.

    Cross-train the other departments without the tools to assist them on arrival.

    PLan B -

    Buy one full set for one department to act as the primary other than the city.

    Buy combi-tools for the other departments, which will handle the majority of the incidents. Stock the primary department with heavier tools and extra equipment such as struts and air bags initially or down the line for truck, school bus, etc incidents.

    Sounds like this may be a great scenario for a county extrication team where all the departments are trained in operations with the tools responding from one or two central departments. I really know if EMS would the the right agency, and would have real concerns abou them being on the bus. They could possibly be carried ion a light rescue operated by EMS, with all the departments cross-trained, as long as EMS could garuntee getting the squad/light rescue on the road.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-23-2010, 05:33 PM.

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  • tree68
    replied
    We have two career staffed departments in the county - one municipal, one federal. Both have heavy rescues (squads to some) with a full complement of tools.

    They only occasionally wander outside their primary response areas because a significant number of the surrounding volunteer fire departments have tools.

    It would be unlikely that I would see either in my district. While we don't have any hydraulic tools on our light rescue (we have a couple of sawzalls and some other light extrication equipment), I can have at least three sets of hydraulic tools (all from VFD's) at a scene anywhere in my district within about 10 minutes. At least one set is automatically dispatched for all MVA's in my district.

    I think I'd sit down with all of the VFD's in your county and determine who can handle what, and who is most likely to need what. Several sets of hydraulic tools (jaws) strategically spread around the county would certainly reduce the number of times the city had to come out into the county, as well as giving you the availability of several sets of tools if the need arose.

    In addition, you might look to stock the VFD's that don't get hydraulic tools with light rescue equipment (saws, portapower, chocking, etc) that would complement the heavy tools.

    Key, of course, is training -both classroom and hands-on - but if you want to attract a crowd of firefighters, tell 'em they're gonna cut some cars up into little pieces. Include the city FD in this training (even using their instructors if they have any) and cross-acceptance will go fairly smoothly.

    Funding for this might come through local support or grants - but I'd contact some insurance companies, too.

    A handy part about doing this as a county-wide project is that you have the ability to start out with a standard - everyone gets the same tools, increasing interchangability and simplifying training.

    I've never run into an ambulance that had extrication equipment on it. Even EMS squads that do extrication usually carry such equipment on a separate vehicle. Some have rigs that rival any FD heavy rescue.

    Best of luck!

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  • hwoods
    replied
    Hmmm.......

    Where do you start?...... Couple of things kinda stand out. Adding stuff to a SUV or Ambulance IN ADEQUATE AMOUNTS, will be next to Impossible. When we decided to go into the Extracation/Rescue Business many years ago, we Bought a Hurst Pump and Jaws and carried it on our Ladder Truck. A few calls and a couple of training Sessions after we started, we found that we had to add stuff to make it work. Cribbing, Air Bags, Air Tools, and more Hand Tools were added. This was in addition to the Tools already carried for Truck Work. We outgrew the space on the Ladder truck and Moved everything to a Pumper that had extra Compartment Space made by adding Diamond Plate Aluminum Tool Boxes to it. 5 more years and we went into our first Heavy Rescue, then 3 years ago we had Pierce build a new Heavy Rescue, a $750,000.00 job with Tandem Axles, Walk in Box, Light Tower, Etc..... In our area, the Fire Department has always, from day 1, provided all EMS and Rescue Services. We should be called the "Everything" Department since if it doesn't involve knives or guns, it's ours.

    My Advice?........
    Start out by getting several "Utility Body" Pickups or Van Style Work Trucks. Equip these with a Hurst Tool System, Generator, Lights, Cribbing, Hand Tools and a "Starter" Airbag Set. These should operate out of several VFDs located to provide maximum coverage in the County. Then Build on that Concept. Alternately, there are used Medium and Heavy Rescues for sale out there, you just have to look around.........

    Last. Please feel free to email me at pgchief182 @firehousemail.com I realize that you can't afford to start out with the Equipment that we have now, but I can offer you a lot of tips on how to have a decently equipped small Rescue Truck on a tiny budget...... Good Luck.

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  • voyager9
    replied
    Originally posted by firemandad View Post
    hey yall, to clear up one item....the proposal is to place extrication equipment on a EMS vehicle of some type. In this county, they typically run 2 units to all EMS calls if possible-one is the ambulance and the other is a truck or suv which has an ems supv in it. So, space and re-loading would not affect patient transport. The tools would, in fact, be shared amongst all the VFD's with EMS being responsible for maintaining them.
    I would rather put the tools and the personnel that use them on the same apparatus. Maybe it is because I'm used to FD-based Rescues (vs EMS).
    -- If the Engine rolls with 4-6 members and the tools then they'll arrive ready to get to work rather then having to wait.
    -- Also there is probably more space on an Engine/Truck for tools and associated equipment (cribbing..etc) then an SUV. I can't begin to picture how you'd store all the necessary tools on an typical SUV so that they're easily deployable.
    -- The EMS Supervisor may not be on the Rescue call. I imagine they normally would, but imagine he's tied up filling out a prior 2nd rig call or something. His SUV won't do much good if it's not on scene.
    -- If the tools are on their trucks then the members of the VFD will be more familiar with them then if they have to call in the EMS Supervisor's SUV for drills. This would also take the EMS Supervisor's SUV out of service while they're drilling.

    Again, maybe it's because the FD is primarily responsible for Rescues in my area.

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  • RFDACM02
    replied
    Originally posted by firemandad View Post

    I could really care less about money-I'm out here trying to serve my fellow citizens. However- even though the city may want reimbursement now for only rescue, it will inevitably turn into reimbursement for all mutual aid calls and our rural areas are definitely growing quickly here.....so there would be no end if the county agreed to this.
    MY FD is similar to the combo FD you note here. Ours is the only career staffed FD in a county with 17 other VFD's all providing various levels of rescue capability. I only want to note that we've had many persons concerned that billing for EMS mutual aid or haz-mat would lead to reimbursement for all mutual aid. This has not and will not be the case with us. Generally speaking the term "mutual aid" is at the minimum disingenuous. We rarely if ever got mutual aid for EMS runs and certainly not for rescue calls, but conversely have enjoyed long standing box alarm style mutual aid for fire incidents. For a small municipal FD, calling in other towns is a reality we cannot ignore, so aid on the fire side is far more "mutual" than could be hoped for with EMS/rescue.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 07-23-2010, 09:30 AM.

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  • FIRE117
    replied
    Extrication

    Here is what a former FD I belonged to did in this situation:

    The city FD (combination dept) purchased a rescue unit and the rural FD (100% volunteer) purchased a rescue unit. The city rescue unit responds in the city limits and rural rescue unit responds outside city limits. If one of these jurisdictions has two MVA's at once, the other FD can send their rescue to the second incident. Also, if either rescue unit is out of service (maintenance, etc.), the other rescue unit can be the backup.

    These two FD's organized a training organization for rescue training (extrication, etc.). Instructors are brought in and the FD's train together. If one rescue unit is short of manpower, the other FD can provide members for manpower. They train together and all have the same certifications.

    Hopefully, you can put an arrangement in place that will work well for your county.

    Leave a comment:


  • Blulakr
    replied
    We are a small town volunteer department that runs approx 150 calls per year. We have what's called an auto-aid agreement with a neighboring city combo paid\vol department. We are dispatched automatically to their district at certain times. We agree to assist with structure fires or MVA's in the portion of their district that borders ours. They agree to respond to our district for any structure fire or if we request more manpower. We will also send an engine to cover one of their stations if they have a large incident. Other smaller rural departments in this area have similiar arrangements.

    This cooperation has served us and our communities well. It also gives us an oppurtunity to gain knowledge and experience from a larger department. We also share drills when we can. If we or they are doing something like a training burn then we attend each others drills.

    We also have a county training officers association that provides regular training for smaller rural departments. A larger department will host a weekend 'workshop' and for a small fee, any firefighter in the county can attend multiple classes.

    This is what works for us. Granted, we are able to do this because we have rescue equipment and trained personel to offer to our neighbors.

    My thoughts are if your outlying departments are able to improve their capabilities then the city would not have to respond and the citizens would recieve better service. You say there are approx 80 mutual aid calls per year and the proposal is to bill about $1000 for each. That's an estimated cost of $80,000 to the county. That will buy a lot of rescue equipment for the rural departments. Offer them some training also and everyone benefiets.

    Leave a comment:


  • firemanpat29
    replied
    after reading my last post let me clarify, the "something productive " was not a slam or a bash in any way. I meant that you would be active and the public would see you doing stuff not standing waiting on the tools. In our case even with our own tools we get set, and unless its life/death/RF NOW, we wait until ems is on scene and stabilizes patients.

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  • firemanpat29
    replied
    I agree that 1/11th of a set of tools is better than none. but possibly you could get a small generator, sawzall, cribbing, a windsheild tool and such for each first due engine? then at least your crew has something productive to do while waiting on the ems truck? How well do each VFD get along with eachother? any power stuggles or ego issues that would cause sharing issues? I used to be our biggest problem 20 years ago when I didnt know anybetter, Its all about working together and understanding what works in one county wont work in all. and I agree when we stay focused on topic this site has a wealth of knowledge. what state are you in? what kind of highways, 4 lane? limited access?

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  • firemandad
    replied
    hey yall, to clear up one item....the proposal is to place extrication equipment on a EMS vehicle of some type. In this county, they typically run 2 units to all EMS calls if possible-one is the ambulance and the other is a truck or suv which has an ems supv in it. So, space and re-loading would not affect patient transport. The tools would, in fact, be shared amongst all the VFD's with EMS being responsible for maintaining them.

    Training will be provided to the VFD's and the EMS crews. It would definitely reduce the load on the city crews/heavy rescue. Out in the county though we have more heavy rescue and fewer simple "door pops" anyway because of open roadway and speed.

    I could really care less about money-I'm out here trying to serve my fellow citizens. However- even though the city may want reimbursement now for only rescue, it will inevitably turn into reimbursement for all mutual aid calls and our rural areas are definitely growing quickly here.....so there would be no end if the county agreed to this.

    firemanpat-please do continue poking holes....that's why i put this post up. after all we're all here sharing and learning. I would much rather learn something on this forum than to have to reinvent the wheel out on the scene before i find out. the knowledge on here is incredible! i've only been in the service 12 years and there's people on here that have probably forgotten more than i even know at this point!!

    Leave a comment:


  • firemanpat29
    replied
    I agree, distribute tools to the depts that have the most need first. Unless it becomes a political peeing contest. I can remember 20 years ago when our VFD bought our first set of jaws. we had a call the second night we had them and wondered if we still wanted them after that. Good luck whatever they decide to do. and my nickles Worth of free advise is go to the university of extracation forum and read all you can. There is alot of good information.

    Leave a comment:


  • voyager9
    replied
    Firemanpat: I think the proposal is to add extrication equipment either to the BLS units or VFD engines. I assume wherever the equipment is placed the on-board personnel would be trained in its operation. In general I agree with your thoughts about extrication equipment on BLS units.. FD-provided is probably better.. assuming manpower/availability is the same.

    firemandad: It sounds like a good idea to me. It puts more equipment out where it is needed and reduces the amount of time it takes to get that equipment on scene.. it also reduces the load on the single Heavy Rescue.

    As Bones said, training is vital.

    Also, it wouldn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing either. Take a look at where the rescue is responding most often and add extrication tools to those VFD's first. Also spread the new equipment out throughout the county. These new Rescue Engines could augment Mutual Aid (call them instead of the single Rescue). As time/money permits add additional equipment to other areas.

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  • firemanpat29
    replied
    one other if I was reading right on one set of tools on the ems rig to be shared, Tool maintenance. if everybody can "Blame" or assume that some one else checked the fluids, ran the power unit weekly, cleaned and tested the hoses ect. thats not a good idea. Unless your ambulance crew is different than ours I would much rather have firefighters doing the upkeep. Nothing against the ems crew but they have enough to do when done with a run restocking and cleaning their stuff I dont imagine adding to the workload would make them smile

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  • firemanpat29
    replied
    if I read your original post right, the tools would be on one ambulance and all the separate VFD's would use them as needed? I hope not, I see several problems with that. 1 storage space. 2 having to wait to reload tools before transporting patient. 3 the useless feeling the VFD would have standing around waiting for The tools to get there. 4 How many VFDs do you have. how would you arrange training time ? 5 ok I will stop,,, I think these would need to be addressed before agreeing to anything. Do any of the VFDs have experience with rescue tools? Do they currently respond to MVAs and wait on the city crew and ambulance ?

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  • Bones42
    replied
    On the surface, it sounds like a winning solution. Puts more equipment out there in the areas it needs to be. Gets the equipment to the scene quicker as a result.

    Downside, the VFD's will need to add additional training. Having the equipment and not being able to properly use it adds nothing. Also, having the equipment and no manpower to use it adds nothing.

    Then again, this may also spark some interest in more people to get involved.

    Leave a comment:

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