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Why I Love Unions ... Another reason.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Competeing organizations??

    Exactly what are a career and volunteer department competing for?
    I'm going to pretend you aren't that naive and assume that question is rhetorical.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
    sigpic
    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

    Comment


    • #47
      I've got a question. Doesn't this federal bill step all over the State's rights? Right now isn't it up to the States to determine if Collective Bargaining is required or not? Isn't that the difference between a Right to Work state and not?

      If so this bill could face a big fight if the State's decide to challenge it.
      So you call this your free country
      Tell me why it costs so much to live
      -3dd

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by voyager9 View Post
        If so this bill could face a big fight if the State's decide to challenge it.
        There's no doubt it'll be a showdown for exactly the reason you've cited. Politically, this is on a par with the FLSA. Personally, I think it's long overdue.
        "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
        sigpic
        The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
          What's "crap" about it? Why shouldn't the union be able to limit its membership to people willing to follow its own by-laws like any other voluntary organization? There's an obvious conflict of interest in belonging to competing organizations. What's the problem? Choose your allegiance.
          The conflict is not so obvious as there is no competition.

          Imagine if the employer made such restrictions on your personal time and freedom.
          I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

          "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

          "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by jasper45 View Post
            It really is as simple as it can be. How can you have some people have the hard work and benefit of the negotiating committees, all of the benefits earned, and not pay for their fair share?

            Here, any position above the rank of captain, meaning battalion level chiefs, deputy level chiefs and administrative chiefs are not in the local. All members below those pay grades are part of the bargaining unit. We have 100% participation. How would you propose to differentiate their pay or benefits, should a "non" member be in our ranks? They would reap the same pay, the same benefits as well as a host of other things that the local membership would have footed the bill for.

            You don't want to be a part of the bargaining unit, resign. The only thing is, you will still owe a prorated fee for the salary and benefits you enjoy, because the local still negotiates on your behalf.

            I don't see what the big deal is with that, it's still a tax write-off, and none of it goes to political action.
            I'm not proposing that anyone NOT join the union. I personally think it would be foolish to pay for a service and not utilize it.

            The comment was made that it was simple. It's not. It's much more complicated. To say "well then, if you don't like it, quit" is a simple response to a complicated issue.
            I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

            "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

            "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
              Imagine if the employer made such restrictions on your personal time and freedom.
              Aren't employers doing something very similar when they dictate that their employees cannot be smokers? Regardless how one feels about smoking, the employer is still restricting what can be done on personal time.
              So you call this your free country
              Tell me why it costs so much to live
              -3dd

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by voyager9 View Post
                Aren't employers doing something very similar when they dictate that their employees cannot be smokers? Regardless how one feels about smoking, the employer is still restricting what can be done on personal time.
                Not really a similar restriction...

                What if your employer said you can't work ANY side jobs. I know some that do just that, and it's not very popular.
                I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                  I'm not proposing that anyone NOT join the union. I personally think it would be foolish to pay for a service and not utilize it.

                  The comment was made that it was simple. It's not. It's much more complicated. To say "well then, if you don't like it, quit" is a simple response to a complicated issue.
                  Your right, chief, it is a complicated issue.

                  When I made my reply above, I thought your "It's not that simple" meant you had to either join the union, and abide all the rules that entails, or leave/not join a particular department, in order to also volunteer at yet another dept. I was pointing out that it is simple, in that you could leave the union and remain employed at a dept., while volunteering elsewhere, but at a cost.

                  The decision process of whether to leave the union to continue volunteering, or stay and reap the rewards that membership has to offer, can be a very complex swirl, and what is right for one might not be for all.

                  Of course the other side of the coin {EDIT:not touched mentioned late} on in this topic, is that the career department, not the union, might forbid you from volunteering. Then it becomes a simple issue again.
                  Last edited by mrpita; 07-14-2010, 01:47 PM. Reason: rechecked facts
                  Opinions expressed are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect those of the Philadelphia Fire Department and/or IAFF Local 22.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                    I'm not proposing that anyone NOT join the union. I personally think it would be foolish to pay for a service and not utilize it.

                    The comment was made that it was simple. It's not. It's much more complicated. To say "well then, if you don't like it, quit" is a simple response to a complicated issue.
                    That's cool. I think I misunderstood your perspective.

                    My honest take is that certain people, such as the educator are spinning this topic to something it is not. Maybe I'm wrong, but the perspective I have is from principle officers in my local, who I find credible and understanding of the International's stance.

                    I truly believe that the IAFF is only concerned with those members who choose to volunteer into a department that has IAFF members employed, such as the Prince George County, MD area. I don't for one second believe the union wishes to stop members, such as FyredUp, from volunteering in his hometown of just over 700 population.

                    I think that some of this "if you don't like it, then just quit" dialogue comes from, is the remarks many of us take from people, when we fight against staffing cuts. I can't tell you how many times I have been told, that if I don't like the cuts, quit and work elsewhere. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I agree, it is complicated.

                    My bad.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by mrpita View Post
                      Of course the other side of the coin not touched on in this topic, is that the career department, not the union, might forbid you from volunteering. Then it becomes a simple issue again.
                      Wasn't that one of the provisions the NVFC had added to this bill? That departments would not be able to prohibit members from volunteering as a condition of employment.
                      So you call this your free country
                      Tell me why it costs so much to live
                      -3dd

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                        The conflict is not so obvious as there is no competition.
                        Arguably there are specific situations when there isn't but it's ingenuous to claim outright that there "is no competition."

                        Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                        Imagine if the employer made such restrictions on your personal time and freedom.
                        Actually, my employer does make restrictions on my personal time and freedom. Odds are, yours does, too. Of course, that's an apples and oranges comparison anyway.
                        "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                        sigpic
                        The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by jasper45 View Post
                          I truly believe that the IAFF is only concerned with those members who choose to volunteer into a department that has IAFF members employed, such as the Prince George County, MD area. I don't for one second believe the union wishes to stop members, such as FyredUp, from volunteering in his hometown of just over 700 population.
                          A slight tangent:

                          I don't disagree with your belief.. it makes sense. How does that stance change when a department is regionalized.. as in your example above?

                          Right now I could work in city A, and volunteer in town B both in the same county. If the Fire Service were to reorganize into a county department I'd then have to stop volunteering?

                          Just seems that there should be an exception when a department spans a large geographic and economic area and was comprised of many different organizational entities (separate VFD's..etc).
                          So you call this your free country
                          Tell me why it costs so much to live
                          -3dd

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by voyager9 View Post
                            Wasn't that one of the provisions the NVFC had added to this bill? That departments would not be able to prohibit members from volunteering as a condition of employment.
                            Reading the article on the first post, it sounded like the unions couldn't establish that as a demand, but made no mention of the employers making that same demand. I know my city frowns upon it for much the same reasons raised above/elsewhere; if you get hurt/cancer/etc., did you get it here or volunteering? Anything to deny a claim, they will do. Not to mention some of the legends I've heard concerning WC fraud.
                            Opinions expressed are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect those of the Philadelphia Fire Department and/or IAFF Local 22.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
                              I'm going to pretend you aren't that naive and assume that question is rhetorical.
                              Please inform me.

                              So what are they competeing over?

                              Jobs?

                              The IAFF actusally beleives that there should be paid firefighters in every department? They actually beleive that volunteers are unable to provide high-quality fire protection in most communties in the US?

                              Please inform me how the volunteer fire service is competetion.
                              Train to fight the fires you fight.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by voyager9 View Post
                                I've got a question. Doesn't this federal bill step all over the State's rights? Right now isn't it up to the States to determine if Collective Bargaining is required or not? Isn't that the difference between a Right to Work state and not?

                                If so this bill could face a big fight if the State's decide to challenge it.
                                States rights? Hrmm that wasnt a issue when they passed the national health care law.
                                IACOJ
                                FTM-PTB

                                Comment

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