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Why I Love Unions ... Another reason.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by firepiper1 View Post
    If you are working part time or being a volly in the city where you live is one thing, but as a former chief in a full-time dept, I didnt like guys working part time in cities where they didnt live. How could I argue at budget time that we are worth X dollars a year with salary and benefits and need a certain number of guys on duty to do the job safely one day and then have people go do the same thing for $15 an hour with 2 guys on duty the next? The cops dont do it and neither should we.
    What is the difference if they moonlight as a fire fighter or as a clerk in a store? What anyone does on their off-duty time is their business as long as they break no laws.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
      That is an outstanding point! The union fights for minimum staffing citing safety reasons, then the membership goes and volunteers in a VFD where proper staffing is not even considered. Sort of kills the Union's position at work, no?
      So what is wrong with volunteering to gain experience as a Captain, or Chief; this looks good on the resume come promotion time.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by tree68 View Post
        Volunteers volunteer pretty much where they live - it's the nature of the beast.

        We have two career staffed departments in our county - one federal, one municipal. All of the other fire protection is via volunteers. This isn't because the towns with the volunteers are trying to cheap out - it's because the money isn't there to fund full-time paid staff.

        And this is a very key point. Volunteer operations do the same job for 5% to 10% of the cost of a paid operation.

        Local Paid department $2.3 million annual budget.
        Our Volunteer Department $130,000

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        • #34
          Originally posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
          And this is a very key point. Volunteer operations do the same job for 5% to 10% of the cost of a paid operation.

          Local Paid department $2.3 million annual budget.
          Our Volunteer Department $130,000
          You get what you pay for.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by babcusar5 View Post
            You get what you pay for.
            And you pay for what you can afford.
            Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

            Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by zackman1801 View Post
              really? because there are quite a few around here that work for either county or other larger towns as a career and work reserve times during large events. It happens more often than you would think.
              OK, when they "work reserve times during large events" are they volunteer, or are they hired as temporary paid positions?

              Either way, being paid at one dept. and vollie at another is far less common in their realm than it is in ours. Further, I would be surprised if the FOP held a much different opinon (of those paid members who volunteer elsewhere) than that of the IAFF.
              Opinions expressed are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect those of the Philadelphia Fire Department and/or IAFF Local 22.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
                So your volunteering is masking a real issue in your local community? A system where "numerous runs" are covered by a single responder begs for a more permanent solution.

                I'm personally not against volunteering where it has no effect on another local, but it also shouldn't be used to as a method to cover poor public policy and help deny there's real problem. Of course this is only exacerbated by the tanking economy. It's a lose-lose right now. The people can't afford what they need.
                you are exactly right it is a lose-lose situation right now. My volunteering has no effect on my local as it is in the neighboring fire district.
                Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                  So basically the legislation says the unions can't negotiate that you can't volunteer elsewhere, but the unions can still kick firefighters out of the union for volunteering elsewhere.

                  That's crap.
                  What's "crap" about it? Why shouldn't the union be able to limit its membership to people willing to follow its own by-laws like any other voluntary organization? There's an obvious conflict of interest in belonging to competing organizations. What's the problem? Choose your allegiance.
                  "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                  sigpic
                  The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                    It's really not that simple.
                    It really is as simple as it can be. How can you have some people have the hard work and benefit of the negotiating committees, all of the benefits earned, and not pay for their fair share?

                    Here, any position above the rank of captain, meaning battalion level chiefs, deputy level chiefs and administrative chiefs are not in the local. All members below those pay grades are part of the bargaining unit. We have 100% participation. How would you propose to differentiate their pay or benefits, should a "non" member be in our ranks? They would reap the same pay, the same benefits as well as a host of other things that the local membership would have footed the bill for.

                    You don't want to be a part of the bargaining unit, resign. The only thing is, you will still owe a prorated fee for the salary and benefits you enjoy, because the local still negotiates on your behalf.

                    I don't see what the big deal is with that, it's still a tax write-off, and none of it goes to political action.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                      And you pay for what you can afford.
                      Which means you get what you pay for.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                        Read the article. This is referring to allowing unions to kick those out - basically ostracize them - if they volunteer elsewhere.
                        You really are a hypocrite, and you don't even realize it; that's very sad.

                        You are the one who harps and moans and cries when it is brought up about your career staff volunteering after hours, and how you would choose to not help them out with something. Remember all of that talk? I sure do.

                        That isn't "ostracizing" them? Oh, I get it; that's "different".


                        Look; I'm not a big fan of a national collective bargaining bill, as I do think that it is against what this country is about. However, because of hicks like you and your idiotic view on employer/employee relations, my brothers and sisters in states, such as yours will suffer thru the naivete of people such as yourself.

                        What you fail to realize is that there are cities and chiefs who will stick it to guys who don't stay on their knees, under their chief's desk; no offense intended, I realize you have years of experience.

                        There are a host of diseases and injuries that are the result of years of doing this job the right way, and if a national bill will help out firemen in states such as yours with being taken care of, I have to say, it's hard for me to argue against the bill. Cancer, heart disease, pulmonary disease and joint issues are all things the union helps take care. They deserve it, even if you don't.


                        You hate the union, I get it. Well, tough sh#t, you're not in it, so please, shut the f*ck up about it. I don't like your attitude on breaking Federal labor law, and I honestly hope that your department pays the price for it, someday.

                        But whatever, the IAFF, which is a private entity, wants to protect IT'S dues paying members (which you're not) and has a policy in place, which it feels helps do this. If you were just a little bit smarter, you would realize that the IAFF does not want to stop it's members from volunteering, save for a few specific cases where they are hurting other IAFF members, by their volunteering.

                        Get over it.
                        Last edited by jasper45; 07-14-2010, 12:45 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
                          What's "crap" about it? Why shouldn't the union be able to limit its membership to people willing to follow its own by-laws like any other voluntary organization? There's an obvious conflict of interest in belonging to competing organizations. What's the problem? Choose your allegiance.
                          Welcome back, Marshal; long time no see.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by jasper45 View Post
                            Welcome back, Marshal; long time no see.
                            Thanks, it's been a while. It's good to see familiar faces still around the forum.
                            "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                            sigpic
                            The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
                              What's "crap" about it? Why shouldn't the union be able to limit its membership to people willing to follow its own by-laws like any other voluntary organization? There's an obvious conflict of interest in belonging to competing organizations. What's the problem? Choose your allegiance.

                              Competeing organizations??

                              Exactly what are a career and volunteer department competing for?
                              Train to fight the fires you fight.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
                                What's "crap" about it? Why shouldn't the union be able to limit its membership to people willing to follow its own by-laws like any other voluntary organization? There's an obvious conflict of interest in belonging to competing organizations. What's the problem? Choose your allegiance.
                                I am a career firefighter in a medium sized city. I live approximately 100 miles from where I work. I am a POC firefigter in the community I live in, a small rural village of 717.

                                Right now you are perhaps muttering, or call me a scab, or saying I am part of the problem. What problem? How many career firefighters will my small village be able to hire? With the annual budget they would be hard pressed to hire one part-timer. I am in full agreement that an IAFF Union Firefighter should not volunteer into another FD with IAFF Union Firefighters employed there. And most certainly should not volunteer back to the FD they are employed by.

                                The entire volunteer, or POC, or part-time firefighter thing is nothing more than hypocrisy at it's finest. First of all where is the outcry against IAFF members working off duty for private ambulance companies? In my community they are perhaps a bigger threat to staffing than anything. Yet there is no outcry about members "Scabbing" there. Secondly, we are part of the greater AFL-CIO International Union. Golly they cover construction workers, truck drivers, and so many more other workers besides firefighters. So we are in essence all Union Brothers and Sisters...RIGHT? So where is then outcry against guys roofing on their off days? Or building houses? Or laying flooring? Or doing cement work? Or driving truck? Or washing windows? Or doing landscaping? Or any of another thousand jobs that could be being done by our extended famly Union Brothers and Sisters. Don't give me the same old tired argument that they do little jobs that the big Union contractors don't want because I could use that same argument in defense of my small, no, tiny rural VFD that I am with on my off days.

                                Please do explain to me how my tiny rural VFD, in a county with one combination department, is competing with anyone? Come on, explain how this is a competing organization?

                                Seriously, some of you need to start thinking for yourselves a bit. On all kinds of Union issues, including who you vote for.
                                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                                Millions of people living as foes
                                Maybe it's not too late
                                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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