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  • #61
    Originally posted by Itshotinhere View Post
    ... go and find some pictures from the 60s where the klan has taken someone out of their home gutted them and then hung them with a NOOSE and lit a cross to show all around who was there.
    ...
    and go pull up old Westerns and see the cowboys hanging from a noose. Where those klan cowboys?

    or go back to Medeval times when people were hung by nooses (and back then it was for strangulation, not breakage) was the klan around then?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

    Comment


    • #62
      Deleted.


      ...
      Last edited by Chenzo; 07-14-2010, 11:53 AM. Reason: Not worth it.
      "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

      "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

      Comment


      • #63
        Here is my original post:

        Okay, I am an instructor for the local tech college on my off days from the fire department. I teach a vriety of classes and one of them is ropes. Invariably in every class one or more students is messing around tieing or attempting to tie a noose. What gives? It has no practical use in firefighting can be construed as harassment, or a threat by some students, and frankly wastes my time and theirs.

        Anyone else experiencing this and how do you handle it?
        It seems like a really simple question. Apparently not.
        Crazy, but that's how it goes
        Millions of people living as foes
        Maybe it's not too late
        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
          That is the purpose of a forum, to debate and discuss. Not everyone will have the same opinions, in fact rarely will all agree.
          And once again not a single one of your posts had a damn thing to do with my original question.

          AS PER THE USUAL, THANK YOU FOR NOT ADDING ONE SINGLE THING OF VALUE TO YET ANOTHER TOPIC.
          Crazy, but that's how it goes
          Millions of people living as foes
          Maybe it's not too late
          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by FFFRED View Post
            I don't know how one could derive intent simply from the act based on his race and him tying a hangmans noose.

            It isn't always the intent of the person doing the act as much as it is the perception of those viewing it. What one views as harmless fun may be viewed as an afront or harassment by another. Take ethnic jokes, once a mainstay of social gatherings, or workers passing time on break, they are no longer viewed as harmless fun by most.

            How is one act racist and the other an act to enflame simply because the person making the knot has different skin color? What if a latino or Asian guy made up the knot?

            The simple fact is you are trying to turn this into a semantical battle now and losing site of the topic. There is no need for anyone in a fire service related educational setting, or a social setting around the firehouse to be tying nooses. No one of ANY race should be doing it.

            Would they fall into the "racism" category or the "seeking to enflame" category? This is where idenity politics finds its limitations and flaws and exposes how silly this idea of banning a knot really is.

            See my answer above. But let me add this. Do you sit around the firehouse in the FDNY and tell derogatory ethnic jokes? I bet if you do it violates official policy about harassment and racism. So why do you do it?

            I'll note there are a few other knots that could be used as a noose but I doubt anyone will make the argument that a slipknot or the few other knots that have been utilized in lynchings are also verboten.

            Silly and irrelevant. It has nothing to do with my original question about this particular knot in an educational setting.

            Now if the black fireman had, as has happened here and a number of other places in recent years, drew up the knot, placed it somewhere in a firehouse and claimed someone else did it in an attempt to intimidate...then yes, there would be an attempt to enflame. But that isn't what we are discussing here...at least I think.

            No it has not one single thing to do with my original question which you seem intent on clouding with irrelevant topic off shoots.

            If a black firefighter did as you describe I would expect the same punishment for them as the white firefighter who tied a noose and hung it in the black firefighter's locker.




            But why the difference? The noose drawn up for curiocitys sake, without any other pretext is not an act of racism. Anymore than hoses, firemen, Large Caliber streams, (that have been used to keep civil rights protesters in check in an attempt to squelch their movement.) are when used to spray off kids in urban areas in 100 degree summer heat.

            Why is it so hard for you and others to see that this knot has no fire service relevance and as such trainees messing around tying it are wasting everyone's time. Further if they were explicitly told not to tie it, and they do anyways, am I to reward their curiousity or admonish them for violating my classroom policy? You seem to think I should say "Golly what initiative you tied that knot I told you not to all by yourself!"

            Frankly, Fred, if you are telling me you are unable to tell the difference between the racist use of firehoses to control civil rights protestors, and cooling off a crowd of children on a hot day, I am afraid you are no longer intelligent enough to be in this conversation.


            When looking at both I see a distinction with no difference, yet a completely different attitude...why?

            Again, this point of yours is so ridiculous and frankly stupid as to be laughable. One makes the news because of the violence and injuries caused to protestors, and the other makes the news as a nice, touchy, feely, look at the firemen cooling off the kids who are having fun.

            Even when I worked for the military I made it clear to my officers I would have nothing to do with quelling protest through the use of fire streams. That is not my job. Crowd control is police work and they generally have far more guys than we do. Let them get the bad press for roughing up the crowd.




            And what are you teaching them? Can they also not tie a Monkeys fist without breaking the rules? (there is actually a use for this knot but I doubt many would know what it is.) You seem to be talking strictly in a classroom. I'm speaking more generally about firemen killing time between drills or whatever. I understand that classroom instruction needs to be focused on the tasks at hand...but are all other knots forbidden or just this one?

            I have no idea what a o monkey fist knot is, but if you say there is a fire service related use for it then to me it is appropriate to teach.

            The tech college I teach for has a strict anti-narassment policy and I am sure that the tying of a hangman's noose is something that would fit into that category. Once again I am sorry you don't like that.






            I agree...I'm not suggesting this become a formal part of the drill. I'm just pointing out that during a class, accademy, drill (I know some accademys are less formal than others, I've been through both) it seems a bit odd that they might be able to kill time by tying any old knot (assuming they mastered the assigned ones) except this one, they are instructed not to. As if telling a student that certain books are banned, this would ensure that curiocity and the excerising of our free rights in this country (or the ones I thought we used to have) would lead the student to seek out these books, just as banning a knot ensures that many will want to learn how to tie it.

            Then do as my son suggested, when you get home after class, look it up on the internet and tie it at home all you want. Decorate your home with nooses if you desire. NOT in my classroom.

            Can they draw up climbing knots? How about a butterfly knot? They aren't related to firematics either.

            Look, how about you stick to my original question? Do whatever you want to in the FDNY.



            I agree that during the class when time is short...however if this happened during a break would this be also a problem? Again, schools can try to ban books for whatever reason they can dream up...however it never works. I don't see the point of banning one knot becuase of one conotation it may or may not carry absent any other context.

            Nice topic diversion by comparing a noose to a book.



            I'm fine with that, I'm just asking questions, don't take it personally. We don't sit around tying nooses. We have a handfull of knots we are taught in the accademy and we don't sit around tying nooses there either. I'm just saying that I find the idea that a certain knot (that was one of many used in lynchings) without any context is forbidden to be made is being a little rediculous.

            No it isn't ridiculous at all in an educational setting. Why set yourself up for grief with having people tie a knot that has no relevance to the material at hand?

            FTM-PTB
            Sorry, we will never agree.
            Crazy, but that's how it goes
            Millions of people living as foes
            Maybe it's not too late
            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

            Comment


            • #66
              I don't know how one could derive intent simply from the act based on his race and him tying a hangmans noose.

              It isn't always the intent of the person doing the act as much as it is the perception of those viewing it. What one views as harmless fun may be viewed as an afront or harassment by another. Take ethnic jokes, once a mainstay of social gatherings, or workers passing time on break, they are no longer viewed as harmless fun by most.
              An ethnic joke is equivilant to a rope with a round turn and a bend or two?
              Using your line of reasoning you could pottentially offend rape/mugging victims with any assortment of knots that have been used to restrain them. Does context not matter...simply finding offense where one wants to find it is how the rule of law should be applied in this case?

              How is one act racist and the other an act to enflame simply because the person making the knot has different skin color? What if a latino or Asian guy made up the knot?

              The simple fact is you are trying to turn this into a semantical battle now and losing site of the topic. There is no need for anyone in a fire service related educational setting, or a social setting around the firehouse to be tying nooses. No one of ANY race should be doing it.
              No I think it is a very important aspect to explore. I asked if a black could draw up such a knot with no scrutiny, you said no because he would be looking to enflame. I think it would be interesting to see how someone who's ancestral origin wasn't European or African would change your rules on why such acts are prohibited?

              As anyone (like myself) who has a number of books about ropes and knots knows, there are tons of knots with very little practical use and I've tied many knots that I've had no intention of using then or ever in the future assuming they even had a functional use. I think it is a silly imature blanket policy to simply ban a knot over what could be one meaning. Taken out of the context of a mob with the intent to kill anyone I don't see the need to do so.

              Would they fall into the "racism" category or the "seeking to enflame" category? This is where idenity politics finds its limitations and flaws and exposes how silly this idea of banning a knot really is.

              See my answer above. But let me add this. Do you sit around the firehouse in the FDNY and tell derogatory ethnic jokes? I bet if you do it violates official policy about harassment and racism. So why do you do it?
              That is about as non-responsive an answer as one gets. I understand your orgininal querry, my take is that I'm not sure why you or anyone else is that cocerned with something like a knot which considering its long existance of use only has a small fraction of its his history wrapped up in Lynchings.

              I'll note there are a few other knots that could be used as a noose but I doubt anyone will make the argument that a slipknot or the few other knots that have been utilized in lynchings are also verboten.

              Silly and irrelevant. It has nothing to do with my original question about this particular knot in an educational setting.
              Your concern is over the hangmans noose which is but one knot of a few that were used to hang mostly black slaves (lynchings have been used on all races fyi) My question is why such sensitivity over just that knot when at an art gallery a few years back I saw a collection of photos of victims hung by lynch mobs, all varriety of slipknots were identifiable as the hangmans noose has the one characteristic that everyone is very familiar with. So why the concern with that one particiular knot?

              Now if the black fireman had, as has happened here and a number of other places in recent years, drew up the knot, placed it somewhere in a firehouse and claimed someone else did it in an attempt to intimidate...then yes, there would be an attempt to enflame. But that isn't what we are discussing here...at least I think.

              No it has not one single thing to do with my original question which you seem intent on clouding with irrelevant topic off shoots.

              If a black firefighter did as you describe I would expect the same punishment for them as the white firefighter who tied a noose and hung it in the black firefighter's locker.
              That is my point...I'm agreeing with you in those terms and in such a situation. But that is far removed from simply having someone tie up a knot that isn't listed in your sylabus.

              But why the difference? The noose drawn up for curiocitys sake, without any other pretext is not an act of racism. Anymore than hoses, firemen, Large Caliber streams, (that have been used to keep civil rights protesters in check in an attempt to squelch their movement.) are when used to spray off kids in urban areas in 100 degree summer heat.

              Why is it so hard for you and others to see that this knot has no fire service relevance and as such trainees messing around tying it are wasting everyone's time. Further if they were explicitly told not to tie it, and they do anyways, am I to reward their curiousity or admonish them for violating my classroom policy? You seem to think I should say "Golly what initiative you tied that knot I told you not to all by yourself!"

              Frankly, Fred, if you are telling me you are unable to tell the difference between the racist use of firehoses to control civil rights protestors, and cooling off a crowd of children on a hot day, I am afraid you are no longer intelligent enough to be in this conversation.
              The same question is what I posed to you.

              You are saying I'm taking the LCS, spraying of black children out of context. And I agree...that is my point. My question to you is why is it any different that a noose drawn up with no association to violence, lynchings, mobs...etc. is unacceptable even during a break between drills?

              When looking at both I see a distinction with no difference, yet a completely different attitude...why?

              Again, this point of yours is so ridiculous and frankly stupid as to be laughable. One makes the news because of the violence and injuries caused to protestors, and the other makes the news as a nice, touchy, feely, look at the firemen cooling off the kids who are having fun.
              I know and it is laughable that you are suggesting we ban a knot simply because in the past it has been used in a violent manner. Just the same it would be absurd to refuse to spray off black children in the sweltering heat under your policy because in the past such equipment was used in a different manner in a different context. Furthermore to one of your earlier points, are the children seeking to "enflame" by requesting this service?

              Even when I worked for the military I made it clear to my officers I would have nothing to do with quelling protest through the use of fire streams. That is not my job. Crowd control is police work and they generally have far more guys than we do. Let them get the bad press for roughing up the crowd.
              Agreed

              And what are you teaching them? Can they also not tie a Monkeys fist without breaking the rules? (there is actually a use for this knot but I doubt many would know what it is.) You seem to be talking strictly in a classroom. I'm speaking more generally about firemen killing time between drills or whatever. I understand that classroom instruction needs to be focused on the tasks at hand...but are all other knots forbidden or just this one?

              I have no idea what a o monkey fist knot is, but if you say there is a fire service related use for it then to me it is appropriate to teach.
              My point was to illustrate a knot which is an advanced knot, not being taught at a community college fire class and isn't on your sylabus in all likelyhood. Would tying such a knot get them into hot water as well?

              The tech college I teach for has a strict anti-narassment policy and I am sure that the tying of a hangman's noose is something that would fit into that category. Once again I am sorry you don't like that.
              Sounds like an overly vauge and possibly unenforcible policy in regards to this issue in that how can you equally apply a rule that you can't even define yourself. It "fits" into that category? Is that your interpretation or a courts? What "tests" does a court use to determine if someone is guilty of harrassment?

              I agree...I'm not suggesting this become a formal part of the drill. I'm just pointing out that during a class, accademy, drill (I know some accademys are less formal than others, I've been through both) it seems a bit odd that they might be able to kill time by tying any old knot (assuming they mastered the assigned ones) except this one, they are instructed not to. As if telling a student that certain books are banned, this would ensure that curiocity and the excerising of our free rights in this country (or the ones I thought we used to have) would lead the student to seek out these books, just as banning a knot ensures that many will want to learn how to tie it.

              Then do as my son suggested, when you get home after class, look it up on the internet and tie it at home all you want. Decorate your home with nooses if you desire. NOT in my classroom.

              Can they draw up climbing knots? How about a butterfly knot? They aren't related to firematics either.

              Look, how about you stick to my original question? Do whatever you want to in the FDNY.
              I think this entire discussion is germain to your question. You presented a problem where you wanted to have an outright ban on something as incocuous as a knot without any other context and that is what we are discussing...No? And as I've noted we only have a few knots and I don't sit around tying these things up...I'm just surprised anyone would have such a policy.

              I agree that during the class when time is short...however if this happened during a break would this be also a problem? Again, schools can try to ban books for whatever reason they can dream up...however it never works. I don't see the point of banning one knot becuase of one conotation it may or may not carry absent any other context.

              Nice topic diversion by comparing a noose to a book.
              Well it can be found in knot manuals so why you'd ban something that is of the public discourse and not obscene or offensive (outside the context of a living breathing mob of people looking to hang someone from a tree or used in conjunction with threats of violence or intimidation)



              I'm fine with that, I'm just asking questions, don't take it personally. We don't sit around tying nooses. We have a handfull of knots we are taught in the accademy and we don't sit around tying nooses there either. I'm just saying that I find the idea that a certain knot (that was one of many used in lynchings) without any context is forbidden to be made is being a little rediculous.

              No it isn't ridiculous at all in an educational setting. Why set yourself up for grief with having people tie a knot that has no relevance to the material at hand?

              FTM-PTB
              Again, If it during the time when they should be mastering the knots they will need on the job, weather it is a noose or a double-fangooly grandmas knot they should be told to knock it off and focus on what they need to be learning...but to suggest you have an outright ban on any knot, even when they are killing time on breaks or waiting for slower students to catch up, because of the potential offense even without any accompanying context is nothing less than a simpletons response and a failure of adults to utilize intelligence and discression.

              FTM-PTB

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                Seriously, you have to either be delusional or kidding. Tell me when a burning cross wouldn't have racist overtones.
                The burning of the cross is Scottish in origin. When the head of a Scottish clan felt their land in danger, he cut some trees, made them into a cross and set it on fire to call the family/clan together to protect the land.

                Kinda like sounding a siren for firefighters.

                This was the tradition in another country and long before racism was attached to it.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by jam24u View Post
                  The burning of the cross is Scottish in origin. When the head of a Scottish clan felt their land in danger, he cut some trees, made them into a cross and set it on fire to call the family/clan together to protect the land.

                  Kinda like sounding a siren for firefighters.

                  This was the tradition in another country and long before racism was attached to it.
                  We're not in Scotland...
                  ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                  Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    FFFRED,

                    Seriously, I asked a simple question about how to handle a problem in a teaching situation. I didn't ask for philosophical debate, I didn't ask for the history of nooses or lynching.

                    Since I am employed by the tech college I will comply with their directives to maintain a non-threatening, non-harassing teaching environment. You don't have to like it, because it does not effect you.
                    Crazy, but that's how it goes
                    Millions of people living as foes
                    Maybe it's not too late
                    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      I think this is absolutely inappropriate in a formal classroom setting. Most acadamies have a very strict Code of Conduct for their students. At least they should. If the students are goofing around tying nooses, they're not paying attention to what you're trying to teach.

                      Sitting around at the station, very different scenario. Provided no one finds it offensive.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                        FFFRED,

                        Seriously, I asked a simple question about how to handle a problem in a teaching situation. I didn't ask for philosophical debate, I didn't ask for the history of nooses or lynching.

                        Since I am employed by the tech college I will comply with their directives to maintain a non-threatening, non-harassing teaching environment. You don't have to like it, because it does not effect you.
                        All I questioned is why there would be an outright ban on tying a knot. If it is during class I agreed they should be focused on learning and mastering the material being taught.

                        Here is how you deal with it.

                        "Hey kid knock that **** off and focus on what we are learning here; it might save your life or those around you."

                        Problem solved.

                        If this is in an accademy setting...make him do push-ups until he pukes.

                        I don't know what answers you were expecting. Other than above the larger issue is why are mature adults dispensing with rational discression and common sense? This echos the sillyness of when adults apply blanket policies on no guns in school to 5 year-olds with army men or t-shirts with revolutionary soliders carrying arms...or any of the other stupidity on display in recent years.

                        However I think my position points out the obvious aburdities in a blanket policy that can't be justified or equally applied due to numerous corollaries that apparently pass muster under this subjectively applied policy. A firehose spraying off black kids or a cross at a church isn't offensive because it is not in the context of suppressing a peoples right to peaceful assembly and free speach nor is the cross burning in someones front lawn surrounded by bigots in bed sheets.

                        I don't know if it is a result of over sensititivy in looking to find racism in the most innocuous of acts or subtle projection bias on the part of some administrator. But I still think outside anyother context...it is absurd to ban something as simple as a knot under the gusie that is in & of itself harrasing and offensive in nature.

                        FTM-PTB

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by FFFRED View Post
                          All I questioned is why there would be an outright ban on tying a knot. If it is during class I agreed they should be focused on learning and mastering the material being taught.

                          Here is how you deal with it.

                          "Hey kid knock that **** off and focus on what we are learning here; it might save your life or those around you."

                          Problem solved.

                          If this is in an accademy setting...make him do push-ups until he pukes.

                          I don't know what answers you were expecting. Other than above the larger issue is why are mature adults dispensing with rational discression and common sense? This echos the sillyness of when adults apply blanket policies on no guns in school to 5 year-olds with army men or t-shirts with revolutionary soliders carrying arms...or any of the other stupidity on display in recent years.

                          However I think my position points out the obvious aburdities in a blanket policy that can't be justified or equally applied due to numerous corollaries that apparently pass muster under this subjectively applied policy. A firehose spraying off black kids or a cross at a church isn't offensive because it is not in the context of suppressing a peoples right to peaceful assembly and free speach nor is the cross burning in someones front lawn surrounded by bigots in bed sheets.

                          I don't know if it is a result of over sensititivy in looking to find racism in the most innocuous of acts or subtle projection bias on the part of some administrator. But I still think outside anyother context...it is absurd to ban something as simple as a knot under the gusie that is in & of itself harrasing and offensive in nature.

                          FTM-PTB
                          Look, one last time, I work for the tech college and they have policies for preventing harassment. I will follow their policies. I simply asked for a way to quash this noose tying watse of time.

                          I will follow the schools policies and frankly I don't have to defend them anymore than you do the FDNY policies when you guys make the headlines. So yes, I am going to pull the infamous FDNY STFU card because you ain't here just like I ain't there.
                          Crazy, but that's how it goes
                          Millions of people living as foes
                          Maybe it's not too late
                          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                            Here is my original post:



                            It seems like a really simple question. Apparently not.
                            Want a simple answer? NO. Has no "racial" relevance to anyone in mainstream America. If it offends anyone it's their personal problem. As anything else that "offends".

                            You know what "offends" me about the noose? That we don't use it in the US. That we are not promptly and frequently using as treatment for murderers, rapists, horse thieves and general POS in our society. But NOOOO the "progressives" that live their irrelevant lives in feigned outrage warehouse them by the thousand in nice comfy prisions with 3 squares, hot/cold running water, and a law library. But NOOOO shouldn't be doing that cruel/unusual. Oh, and racist too, yeah racist, as a high proportion are dark skinned. Must release them and register as democrats. Four or ten times. Those are Obama vote.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by neiowa View Post
                              Want a simple answer? NO. Has no "racial" relevance to anyone in mainstream America. If it offends anyone it's their personal problem. As anything else that "offends".

                              You are delusional.

                              Once again I work for the tech college, I like my job and as such I will work to keep my classes harassment free. I am really sorry that you can't understand that.


                              You know what "offends" me about the noose? That we don't use it in the US. That we are not promptly and frequently using as treatment for murderers, rapists, horse thieves and general POS in our society. But NOOOO the "progressives" that live their irrelevant lives in feigned outrage warehouse them by the thousand in nice comfy prisions with 3 squares, hot/cold running water, and a law library. But NOOOO shouldn't be doing that cruel/unusual. Oh, and racist too, yeah racist, as a high proportion are dark skinned. Must release them and register as democrats. Four or ten times. Those are Obama vote.

                              First of all, this rant has not one single thing to do with my question. Secondly, your entire response presumes things that are far beyond your ability to know and in fact is incredibly insulting.

                              I am no bleeding heart liberal and my original question was straight forward and simple. It is those of you that couldn't see that that have turned this into the idiotic, rambling, political topic it has become.



                              Thanks for offering absolutely NOTHING of value. I think the only thing you accomplished here is to show what an incredibly angry person you are.
                              Crazy, but that's how it goes
                              Millions of people living as foes
                              Maybe it's not too late
                              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                I dont think it is any different than someone dipping skoal or talking in class. You are the instructor - tell them to knock it off - if they respect you as a teacher , they will - if not , gain their respect.
                                ?

                                Comment

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