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  • #46
    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
    So do you tell ethnic and dirty jokes during class breaks?
    Total non-sequitur. You're ranting now.
    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 07-13-2010, 02:28 PM.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
    sigpic
    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

    Comment


    • #47
      I still like my original idea....

      Originally posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
      There's a way to solve that problem....

      "any student tying a noose will be required to demonstrate its use by attaching it to a high point, applying it to themselves and taking a step off of the nearest chair, stool, desktop or ladder....
      ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
      Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

      Comment


      • #48
        This automatic thinking that a noose knot has racists overtone is just jumping overboard. A flaming cross should not automatically be considered a racist act either. There has to be an additional connection of sorts for it to be considered racist or a hate crime. Burning a cross was around long before it was considered a Klan trademark.

        Frankly a knot is just a knot.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
          Good for you. I don't either. Tying a knot -- any knot -- is neither ethnic nor sexual harassment.

          Sorry, no, you are wrong. It can be construed as harassment so why even mess with it at all. It has absolutely nothing to do with firefighting.



          Which is why I said wait for a break like you would with any sidetrack subject from the class not directly related to the subject at hand.

          I am still on the clock for the tech college during my breaks and that is why I simply will not EVER show a student the noose. You may do as you wish and I respect your decision. How about you respect my decision and stop your accusations about me being a racist when I can show a 30 year record of instructing with no racist, or othe harassment complaints, ever being filed against me.


          Agreed. It's ridiculous to make an issue out of a non-issue. If someone in class is spending time tying knots that aren't part of the class objectives then they'd better be able to demonstrate proficiency in every knot that is on the objectives list.

          It IS an issue, on occasion, in the environment that I teach in. And those same people that will fool around and waste time tying the noose usually are the ones that when we go out to do practical applications of the figure 8, bowline, clove hitch, and half hitches are the ones that need extra help because they weren't paying attention to the knots they were supposed to be learning.


          I called your remark racist and stand by that assessment. What you read into that is up to you.

          Then your assessment is so faulty as to border on assinine. What I read into it is you made a knee jerk reaction to make yourself look impressive. EPIC FAIL.



          No, I wrote it because that's the way your remark came across and I don't care much for racist remarks.

          Because I said this?
          If you have Blacks in the class
          That statement is racist HOW? You calling that simple statment racist is an amazing stretch. Get over yourself.



          BTW, I don't do "PC."

          Oh you do PC very well. The sad part is you can't even see it or admit it.

          Have a sparkling day!

          I am, I love exposing hypocrites like you for what you are. A noose has no racist conotations and you chastise me for saying it does. Then you jump on me for saying "If you have Blacks in class" like that statement is a racist comment. No, it is a simple statement of fact. By the way, Blacks in class or not, I don't allow the noose to be tied in class, or on breaks, EVER. Sorry that offends you.

          Nicve how you skirted my ethnic and dirty joke question...In reality you answered it anyways. Don't be surprised when that bites you in the *** someday.
          Crazy, but that's how it goes
          Millions of people living as foes
          Maybe it's not too late
          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by jam24u View Post
            This automatic thinking that a noose knot has racists overtone is just jumping overboard. A flaming cross should not automatically be considered a racist act either. There has to be an additional connection of sorts for it to be considered racist or a hate crime. Burning a cross was around long before it was considered a Klan trademark.

            Frankly a knot is just a knot.

            Seriously, you have to either be delusional or kidding. Tell me when a burning cross wouldn't have racist overtones.
            Crazy, but that's how it goes
            Millions of people living as foes
            Maybe it's not too late
            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

            Comment


            • #51
              Isn't it great how Scarecrow can go from preaching ethics, telling us "If it can be taken the wrong way by the public, then we should never do it" when it comes to washing a car on duty; and turn around and say that we should be able to tie a noose because it's not our fault that people take it the wrong way...
              "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by MarcusKspn View Post
                Isn't it great how Scarecrow can go from preaching ethics, telling us "If it can be taken the wrong way by the public, then we should never do it" when it comes to washing a car on duty; and turn around and say that we should be able to tie a noose because it's not our fault that people take it the wrong way...
                No surprise really, since he is the minister of misinformation, half truths, made up statistical data, and hypocrisy here on FH.com.
                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                Millions of people living as foes
                Maybe it's not too late
                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by jam24u View Post
                  This automatic thinking that a noose knot has racists overtone is just jumping overboard. A flaming cross should not automatically be considered a racist act either. There has to be an additional connection of sorts for it to be considered racist or a hate crime. Burning a cross was around long before it was considered a Klan trademark.

                  Frankly a knot is just a knot.
                  It may have been around long before before the fools in the klan used it to bring terror to many people. You have to remember thats it's not been that long ago where this sort of thing was common place.

                  The knot has no use what so ever in the fire service.

                  It IS automatic thinking by some people that a noose is racist... go and find some pictures from the 60s where the klan has taken someone out of their home gutted them and then hung them with a NOOSE and lit a cross to show all around who was there.

                  Frankly I can see where some people might find it offensive.

                  Fyredup You did well
                  Get the first line into operation.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                    Nicve how you skirted my ethnic and dirty joke question...In reality you answered it anyways. Don't be surprised when that bites you in the *** someday.
                    It was an irrelevant question but I'll humor you this once. "No." Happy now? (That's a rhetorial question, BTW.)

                    *plonk*
                    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 07-13-2010, 05:27 PM.
                    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                    sigpic
                    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Does anyone have any thoughts on the following senarios...

                      Is it ok for a Black fireman to tie a noose? Would that act be viewed as potentially, overtly, or explicitly racist?

                      Is it ok to use fire department appliances (hoses, Tower Ladders, Hydrants) to spray off a group of children and/or adults who happen to be predominantly minority during the summer at a PR event?

                      Taken out of context just as some have purposely done with guys tying nooses (usually to gain something for themselves or their causes) these too would seem out of bounds if we are to follow the rules established by whomever.

                      It is one thing to make a noose, or spray off kids in an inocuous manner...it is an entirely different one to do it in the presensce of a mob of men with bats, shotguns, dogs and ropes milling about low hanging branches.

                      I suppose it is too much to expect adults to see and understand the difference. If we are to believe some on here...anyone who should draw up such a knot...regardless that this person may have no idea what in this history of rope this knot has been used for nor has any intent other than just goofing off, is nothing less than Bull Connor Reincarnate!

                      I'd say some need to get a grasp on reality.

                      FTM-PTB
                      Last edited by FFFRED; 07-13-2010, 10:54 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by FFFRED View Post
                        Does anyone have any thoughts on the following senarios...

                        Is it ok for a Black fireman to tie a noose? Obviously NO. Would that act be viewed as potentially, overtly, or explicitly racist? Yes, it would be an attempt to enflame.

                        Is it ok to use fire department appliances (hoses, Tower Ladders, Hydrants) to spray off a group of children and/or adults who happen to be predominantly minority during the summer at a PR event? If it is requested by the children and is done safely it should not be a problem.

                        Taken out of context just as some have purposely done with guys tying nooses (usually to gain something for themselves or their causes) these too would seem out of bounds if we are to follow the rules established by whomever. The point is in an educational situation, where the noose has nothing to do with what is being taught, and the student has been told not to tie it, tieing it shows a lack of respect for both the instructor and the rules.

                        It is one thing to make a noose, or spray off kids in an inocuous manner...it is an entirely different one to do it in the presensce of a mob of men with bats, shotguns, dogs and ropes milling about low hanging branches. Explain to me what the need is for a firefighter to tie a noose during ropes and knots training. There is no fire related reason for tying it.

                        I suppose it is too much to expect adults to see and understand the difference. If we are to believe some on here...anyone who should draw up such a knot...regardless that this person may have no idea what in this history of rope this knot has been used for nor has any intent other than just goofing off, is nothing less than Bull Connor Reincarnate! If the student has been told NOT to tie the knot in class and they tie it anyways what message are they sending? Stupidity? Lack of respect? Racism? No matter why they tied it if they were told under no circumstances were they to tie the knot then why do it?

                        I'd say some need to get a grasp on reality. You know something FFFRED, I am going to turn one of the things you FDNY guys say all the time right back at you. This isn't the FDNY, it is the Wisconsin Tech College system and while you may sit around the table merrily tying nooses in your firehouse, and if you do more power to you, it is NOT appropriate behavior in the classroom here. I am sorry if that offends you, but my teaching job means more to me than agreeing with your opinion. So we will be doing what you might do just because you can.
                        FTM-PTB
                        Have a nice day!
                        Crazy, but that's how it goes
                        Millions of people living as foes
                        Maybe it's not too late
                        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Seriously, this is getting ****ing ridiculous.

                          There's no need for a noose to be taught in a fire service class, whether on class time or breaks. It has racial connotations that can get instructors/students/facilities in trouble, if it ends up offending someone. If a student is hell bent on learning to tie a noose, there's this magical tool called the internet. It's been around for a while now, and it allows to student to do stupid **** like this on their own time.

                          And now we've gone into cross burnings and the swastika and origin of the noose. For christs sake a simple question was asked, and it always turns into a frakkin argument. Answer the question, move on. It's really, and I promise you this, that simple.
                          "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

                          "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            The biggest thing to realize is that the noose is not just a fascination of firemen; it is a fascination of society. It used to be a symbol of law enforcement used to punish criminals. Now it has been hijacked and given a different meaning.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Chenzo View Post
                              ...For christs sake a simple question was asked, and it always turns into a frakkin argument..
                              That is the purpose of a forum, to debate and discuss. Not everyone will have the same opinions, in fact rarely will all agree.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                                Have a nice day!
                                Does anyone have any thoughts on the following senarios...

                                Is it ok for a Black fireman to tie a noose? Obviously NO. Would that act be viewed as potentially, overtly, or explicitly racist? Yes, it would be an attempt to enflame.
                                I don't know how one could derive intent simply from the act based on his race and him tying a hangmans noose.

                                How is one act racist and the other an act to enflame simply because the person making the knot has different skin color? What if a latino or Asian guy made up the knot?

                                Would they fall into the "racism" category or the "seeking to enflame" category? This is where idenity politics finds its limitations and flaws and exposes how silly this idea of banning a knot really is.

                                I'll note there are a few other knots that could be used as a noose but I doubt anyone will make the argument that a slipknot or the few other knots that have been utilized in lynchings are also verboten.

                                Now if the black fireman had, as has happened here and a number of other places in recent years, drew up the knot, placed it somewhere in a firehouse and claimed someone else did it in an attempt to intimidate...then yes, there would be an attempt to enflame. But that isn't what we are discussing here...at least I think.

                                Is it ok to use fire department appliances (hoses, Tower Ladders, Hydrants) to spray off a group of children and/or adults who happen to be predominantly minority during the summer at a PR event? If it is requested by the children and is done safely it should not be a problem.
                                But why the difference? The noose drawn up for curiocitys sake, without any other pretext is not an act of racism. Anymore than hoses, firemen, Large Caliber streams, (that have been used to keep civil rights protesters in check in an attempt to squelch their movement.) are when used to spray off kids in urban areas in 100 degree summer heat.

                                When looking at both I see a distinction with no difference, yet a completely different attitude...why?

                                Taken out of context just as some have purposely done with guys tying nooses (usually to gain something for themselves or their causes) these too would seem out of bounds if we are to follow the rules established by whomever. The point is in an educational situation, where the noose has nothing to do with what is being taught, and the student has been told not to tie it, tieing it shows a lack of respect for both the instructor and the rules.
                                And what are you teaching them? Can they also not tie a Monkeys fist without breaking the rules? (there is actually a use for this knot but I doubt many would know what it is.) You seem to be talking strictly in a classroom. I'm speaking more generally about firemen killing time between drills or whatever. I understand that classroom instruction needs to be focused on the tasks at hand...but are all other knots forbidden or just this one?

                                It is one thing to make a noose, or spray off kids in an inocuous manner...it is an entirely different one to do it in the presensce of a mob of men with bats, shotguns, dogs and ropes milling about low hanging branches. Explain to me what the need is for a firefighter to tie a noose during ropes and knots training. There is no fire related reason for tying it.
                                I agree...I'm not suggesting this become a formal part of the drill. I'm just pointing out that during a class, accademy, drill (I know some accademys are less formal than others, I've been through both) it seems a bit odd that they might be able to kill time by tying any old knot (assuming they mastered the assigned ones) except this one, they are instructed not to. As if telling a student that certain books are banned, this would ensure that curiocity and the excerising of our free rights in this country (or the ones I thought we used to have) would lead the student to seek out these books, just as banning a knot ensures that many will want to learn how to tie it.

                                Can they draw up climbing knots? How about a butterfly knot? They aren't related to firematics either.

                                I suppose it is too much to expect adults to see and understand the difference. If we are to believe some on here...anyone who should draw up such a knot...regardless that this person may have no idea what in this history of rope this knot has been used for nor has any intent other than just goofing off, is nothing less than Bull Connor Reincarnate! If the student has been told NOT to tie the knot in class and they tie it anyways what message are they sending? Stupidity? Lack of respect? Racism? No matter why they tied it if they were told under no circumstances were they to tie the knot then why do it?
                                I agree that during the class when time is short...however if this happened during a break would this be also a problem? Again, schools can try to ban books for whatever reason they can dream up...however it never works. I don't see the point of banning one knot becuase of one conotation it may or may not carry absent any other context.

                                I'd say some need to get a grasp on reality. You know something FFFRED, I am going to turn one of the things you FDNY guys say all the time right back at you. This isn't the FDNY, it is the Wisconsin Tech College system and while you may sit around the table merrily tying nooses in your firehouse, and if you do more power to you, it is NOT appropriate behavior in the classroom here. I am sorry if that offends you, but my teaching job means more to me than agreeing with your opinion. So we will be doing what you might do just because you can.
                                FTM-PTB
                                I'm fine with that, I'm just asking questions, don't take it personally. We don't sit around tying nooses. We have a handfull of knots we are taught in the accademy and we don't sit around tying nooses there either. I'm just saying that I find the idea that a certain knot (that was one of many used in lynchings) without any context is forbidden to be made is being a little rediculous.

                                FTM-PTB
                                Last edited by FFFRED; 07-14-2010, 08:07 AM.

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