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Firemen and nooses...Why?

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  • #16
    Having been an instructor for over 20 years, I state early on that the noose will not be tolerated in the class, or as the students pursue their fire careers.

    Despite that warning, I have found that there is always someone who wishes to demonstrate their inability to pay attention. Every class has a clown or two... and at least one thinks it is a good idea to impress everyone with the noose.

    My response is total removal from the class. Of course, this measure has been met with objections or requests for a second chance. Sorry... not in my class especially when you have been warned.

    I don't know if this condition is due to a total disdain for authority or a mental disconnect. But it is by far the single most inflammatory action one can perform to get a negative reaction quickly in a diversified organization. If someone thinks this is a good idea of a joke, or even constructive, then think about how they will perform as a firefighter down the road.

    Maybe, just maybe.... the life you save is your own if you drum these guys out.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    • #17
      I know how to tie a noose. When I did my FFI and the knots portion I did not tie one. On the last day of class when we were reviewing for our test just screwing around tieing our knots and practicing stuff the guys in the class asked me to tie one. I knew by this time that nobody woiuld take offense to it and I did it as a demonstration, not in a way to try and offend anybody. Nobody took offense to it. Was what I did right or wrong? I don't know.

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      • #18
        There's a way to solve that problem....

        "any student tying a noose will be required to demonstrate its use by attaching it to a high point, applying it to themselves and taking a step off of the nearest chair, stool, desktop or ladder....
        ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
        Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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        • #19
          Waaaayyy back in high school, I tied a 'noose', carefully constructed so that it couldn't be tightened. No threats made or implied - it was just for the heck of it. It was also on the stage in the theater, and, if memory serves, the Drama Club (of which I was a part) may have even been working on Arthur Miller's "The Crucible..."

          That said - it's a dangerous knot. Properly tied it only slips one way. Never mind that, though - I can tie a bowline a heck of a lot faster.

          No need to involve it in firefighting training or operations.
          Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

          Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
            What is really interesting is that the lynch mob and the hangman's noose pre-dates any sort of racial issues. In fact the lynch mob has its roots back in the Revolutionary era. Somehow the PC crowd convoluted it to be a racial threat, which it is not.
            The origins of the hangman's noose really doesn't matter one bit. What matters is the meaning certain symbols have taken on throughout history.

            Here in Oklahoma the swastika used to be a very popular good luck symbol for the native-americans. The 45th infantry division used it as their symbol, and it is found in the decorations of our capitol. During WW2 the 45th changed their symbol to a thunderbird. Not because the original meaning and purpose of the swastika has changed, but because it's contemporary meaning has been perverted. When idiots walk around with swastikas on a flag, you know people are not thinking "Ohhhh, Indians, and they are wishing us good luck!"

            Hell, I even remember a time when Scarecrows used to stand for farming, not trolls.
            "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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            • #21
              It's a knot like any other knot. If someone wants to tie one, show them how after class or on break. (Presuming you know how to tie one.)

              It's only a big deal if you make it one.
              "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
              sigpic
              The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by MarcusKspn View Post
                Hell, I even remember a time when Scarecrows used to stand for farming, not trolls.
                LOL

                I almost missed that one the first time through!
                "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                sigpic
                The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by MarcusKspn View Post
                  Hell, I even remember a time when Scarecrows used to stand for farming, not trolls.
                  Lions and Tigers and Bears OH MY! That was funny as hell and right on the mark.
                  Stay Safe
                  Bull


                  “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
                  - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

                  Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
                  -WINSTON CHURCHILL

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
                    It's a knot like any other knot. If someone wants to tie one, show them how after class or on break. (Presuming you know how to tie one.)

                    It's only a big deal if you make it one.
                    It's a big deal because it's not a necessary knot in the fire service at all. Period. Tell me when a noose has a practical application on the fire ground?
                    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

                    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
                      It's a knot like any other knot. If someone wants to tie one, show them how after class or on break. (Presuming you know how to tie one.)

                      It's only a big deal if you make it one.
                      No it's a big deal because of the connotations of the knot. If you have Blacks in the class and a white guy ties the knot, even if he is just fooling around, it may cause problems. The noose is not related to firefighting in any way. I can tie it but I would never, and I mean NEVER, show a student how to tie it.
                      Last edited by FyredUp; 07-13-2010, 12:28 AM.
                      Crazy, but that's how it goes
                      Millions of people living as foes
                      Maybe it's not too late
                      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                        Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal
                        It's a knot like any other knot. If someone wants to tie one, show them how after class or on break. (Presuming you know how to tie one.)

                        It's only a big deal if you make it one.


                        No it's a big deal because of the connotations of the knot. If you have Blacks in the class and a white guy ties the knot, even if he is just fooling around, it may cause problems. The noose is not related to firefighting in any way. I can tie it but I would never, and I mean NEVER, show a student how to tie it.

                        I agree with both here. First I agree there is no reason to learn the knot, let alone teach it, because there is no use for the knot in the fire service, or even society in general. I don't know of many places, except perhaps the MidEast, where there were recent uses for it.

                        That leads to my second part that I also agree, the knot in itself is a knot, it is only a big deal if made out to be. I don't agree with the "practical joke" aspect or anything like that, but there is no reason to make an issue out of something it need not be. Yes, there can be some connotations of the knot, but only if it is made out to be so. Reality is there are many people, not just Blacks, who died at the end of such a knot. As I mentioned, there are still hangings that take place as capitol punishment, is it made out to be a race thing for that?

                        There isn't a place for such a knot in the fire service, not as a joke, a curiosity, or what have you, but there also isn't a need for the racial undertones which tend to accompany the knot. History has shown us many people have died at the ends of such a knot. Many accused witches, yet completely innocent people, died at the end of a noose, majority of them were white, but do you ever hear concern for the people of a Wiccan belief in relations to such a knot?...bottom line don't tie it, if you know how, don't teach it. However, the knot in itself isn't a racist thing either, it is still a knot. If used in a threatning manner or some sort, yes that is an issue, but everything associated with the knot is not about race.
                        Last edited by jccrabby3084; 07-13-2010, 01:00 AM.
                        The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ScareCrow57
                          What is really interesting is that the lynch mob and the hangman's noose pre-dates any sort of racial issues. In fact the lynch mob has its roots back in the Revolutionary era. Somehow the PC crowd convoluted it to be a racial threat, which it is not.
                          The PC crowd did not illicit it as a racial threat. History did it, as well as the KKK.

                          About 5 years ago, a street maintenance worker had a noose hanging on his city truck rear view mirror for the fun of it. One day he pointed at it, then pointed to another street worker that was black. He got reported, and then fired for it.

                          As for the OP, you should know why they want to. The best thing you can do is make sure that it is plain and clear, that it will not be tolerated nor mentioned in your class on how to make one. And if they do, out the door they go.

                          FM1
                          I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

                          Originally posted by EastKyFF
                          "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MarcusKspn View Post
                            The origins of the hangman's noose really doesn't matter one bit. What matters is the meaning certain symbols have taken on throughout history.

                            Here in Oklahoma the swastika used to be a very popular good luck symbol for the native-americans. The 45th infantry division used it as their symbol, and it is found in the decorations of our capitol. During WW2 the 45th changed their symbol to a thunderbird. Not because the original meaning and purpose of the swastika has changed, but because it's contemporary meaning has been perverted. When idiots walk around with swastikas on a flag, you know people are not thinking "Ohhhh, Indians, and they are wishing us good luck!"

                            Hell, I even remember a time when Scarecrows used to stand for farming, not trolls.
                            See I disagree here. The PC crowd has managed to take things, change the definition, and then make them seem racist or inflammatory. Sure there were lynch mobs that used the lynchings against blacks. But just because something is used against blacks doesn't mean they were the only ones it was used on.

                            Interestingly, a slip knot can be used for the same purpose, yet we teach that. In fact I recall reading some where that in the middle ages the slip know was used at hangings.
                            Last edited by ScareCrow57; 07-13-2010, 02:30 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
                              About 5 years ago, a street maintenance worker had a noose hanging on his city truck rear view mirror for the fun of it. One day he pointed at it, then pointed to another street worker that was black. He got reported, and then fired for it.
                              That is just political correctness gone bad. The PC Bull Crap has gotten so bad I don't tell jokes or even joke about anything at work. You can say or do something completely innocuous and some thin skinned liberal jackazz will get all bent out of shape and whine about it. Next thing you know you are out in the street. I say if they can't handle the heat then get the heck out of the kitchen.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                                No it's a big deal because of the connotations of the knot. If you have Blacks in the class and a white guy ties the knot, even if he is just fooling around, it may cause problems. The noose is not related to firefighting in any way. I can tie it but I would never, and I mean NEVER, show a student how to tie it.
                                So is the same standard applied if a black ties the knot and a white guy is in the class?

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