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  • Posted in rescue, looking for answers but forum seems empty maybe I can get help here

    I am a certified Rescue Tech 1, threw the department of defense. I have not been in the class in about 4years, although I do participate in a lot of high angle rescue situations with a local search and rescue team.

    My question stems from this. Four members of my department attended the Alabama fire college to be certified to instruct confined space rescue. Long story short we were out training and set the tripod over the hole. (We have a trainer we used). When the rescuer was placed on the 4to1 B/T and the Belay line was hooked up before the "Rescuer" entered the whole. They attached the belay line to the same attachment point on his harness as his load line.

    This sent up red flags all over my head and I asked " Why are you hooking up his belay line to the same point as his haul line?" I got the typical firehouse answer from the instructor. Because that’s how I was taught at AFC. I said to myself, “well I was always taught that rope rescue systems are always safety redundant, and that you have 2 systems (Haul, and Belay) that are totally independent from each other so that if one system fails and any point, the second system is intact.”

    I used common sense and the education that I had received to explain why you would not want to hook your belay line to the same attachment point as the haul line, because if that attachment point fails, then you now have no belay line, and no haul line and you fall to the ground below.

    My instructor failed to accept common sense and just kept repeating “That’s how they taught it at AFC”

    I guess I am calling all the RESCUE RATS out there to help me with my defense. I guess my fellow firefighter who was teaching this class got a little “Butt Hurt” when I called safety on attaching the belay line and the haul line to the same attachment point, and ran his mouth to my Captain, who then decided to get an attitude with me, over having a legit safety concern, and voicing it.

    If anyone could lead me in the right direction to the standard that says two independent attachment points, two independent systems, and two independent anchor systems, I would appreciate it.

  • #2
    I too was trained in the redundancy of things. Belay is done from a seperate point on the harness. Sometimes in training we tend to build in habits both good and bad. Here is one I read about recently from our brothers in blue.

    There were two officers on patrol and they stopped by a seven eleven. One officer went in first right in the middle of a robbery in progress when the criminal had them drop his weapon and raise his hands. The second officer coming in got the criminal off guard allowing the first officer to disarm the criminal. Here is where a bad training habit happened.... Once he disarmed the bad guy, he gave the weapon back. In all his training after he was able to disarm the instructor, he gave the weapon back. They were able to fix their mistake and subdue the criminal. After looking at the security tape it was all their, he actually gave up the gun after disarming, talk about a BAD training habit
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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    • #3
      Well...........

      Better giving up a gun than giving up a Donut...........
      Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
      In memory of
      Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
      Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

      IACOJ Budget Analyst

      I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

      www.gdvfd18.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by LT2387 View Post
        I too was trained in the redundancy of things. Belay is done from a seperate point on the harness. Sometimes in training we tend to build in habits both good and bad. Here is one I read about recently from our brothers in blue.

        There were two officers on patrol and they stopped by a seven eleven. One officer went in first right in the middle of a robbery in progress when the criminal had them drop his weapon and raise his hands. The second officer coming in got the criminal off guard allowing the first officer to disarm the criminal. Here is where a bad training habit happened.... Once he disarmed the bad guy, he gave the weapon back. In all his training after he was able to disarm the instructor, he gave the weapon back. They were able to fix their mistake and subdue the criminal. After looking at the security tape it was all their, he actually gave up the gun after disarming, talk about a BAD training habit
        EPIC FAIL hahaha

        Comment


        • #5
          You are not going to find a standard that states two independent attachment points is mandatory. It would be nice to have two seperate points of attachment. If this were done than two seperate harnesses should be worn. Sometimes the attachment point for raising and lowering is the best point to attach the belay line because if the stuff hits the fan what will the belay line be doing. Answer: lifting or lowering. Remember all confined spaces are not alike. We have to trust our equipment at some point.

          Comment


          • #6
            Well........

            I have some Books on the subject of Rope Rescue, and in looking thru the sections dealing with Belaying, I haven't found any "Hard and Fast" Rule regarding separating the Belay Attach Point and the Haul Attach Point. As I get time, I'll dig a bit more...........
            Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
            In memory of
            Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
            Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

            IACOJ Budget Analyst

            I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

            www.gdvfd18.com

            Comment


            • #7
              I know we were always taught to use seperate attach points if possible/available. I'd just be happy that my guys like me enough to give me a belay
              Matt G.
              Battalion Chief
              IACOJ-Member
              FTM-PTB

              Comment


              • #8
                I had answered in the Specialized Rescue section, but I will share here now that more people are in this discussion.

                In high angle, we (our TRT and regional team) will attach to the front waist attachment point with both main and safety lines. Here is the reasoning;

                The attachment ring on NFPA rated harness is rated at over 22 kilonewtons... which is nearly 5000 foot pounds of force (BTW, the human body suffers injuries incompatible with life at around 12 KN). The attachment is not going to break, I would be more concerned with the stitching in the harness.

                The reason to attach both to the front is- what happens if, God forbid, the main line disappears (anchor fails, DCD fails, rope cut by falling meteorite) and you will then be loaded onto your belay line hooked to your dorsal (back) attachment point. You will be hanging from your shoulder blades with no way to self rescue.



                On the other hand, these guys were conducting CONFINED SPACE evolutions. Then is one time you want your belay line hooked to your back. This is in case you collapse (atmosphere changes, heart attack, shot by a hobo). If your belay line is attached to your front, you will rag doll over and will not be easily removed from a manhole cover type access/egress point. If it is attached to the dorsal attachment you are more in-line when hauling up and can make it through the hole.
                ~Drew
                Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
                USAR TF Rescue Specialist

                Comment


                • #9
                  OSHA mandates a fall protection attachment to be high and on the back. It doesn't make sense to me but that's the rule. Now you could have the lowering system attached to his waist in front.
                  You're using shock absorbers on the guys right? then their is no reason they can't be on the same attachment point. If you inspect your equipment there is really no reason why the attachments can't be on the same point. I personally like to be raised and lowered from my low front ring, but the belay is always on the high back

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Someone posted this in the same topic in the rescue section

                    http://www.firerescue1.com/data/PDFs...DisFRM1006.pdf

                    It is an article that tells why to consider both attachments to the front, and explains that the current US recommendations on this from OSHA do not meet standards for rescue work.
                    ~Drew
                    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
                    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by VincentEng2 View Post
                      I am a certified Rescue Tech 1, threw the department of defense.
                      All at once, or one by one? Either way, you're very strong.
                      Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally Posted by VincentEng2
                        I am a certified Rescue Tech 1, threw the department of defense.
                        Originally Posted by Johhny46
                        All at once, or one by one? Either way, you're very strong.
                        Damn... coffee all over my monitor and desk.... again....
                        ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                        Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Bahahha!!

                          Originally posted by johnny46 View Post
                          All at once, or one by one? Either way, you're very strong.
                          I get it.....
                          RK
                          cell #901-494-9437

                          Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

                          "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


                          Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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