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  • #16
    Originally posted by Daniel Byrne View Post
    Thanks for the repost. Sorry for the delete. My fingers were moving quicker than my brain. That happens more and more with each passing year.

    The hours I am using I am just pulling out of my head as examples. One hour, four, doesn't matter, its what the dept can afford.

    If you read the National Response Plan the focus is on communities being prepared when a disaster hits, from man made to terrorism (fire in the middle) and until emergency responders arrive. There are grants and funding out there for these things. That's just FYI.

    Here is the thing. The main focus is on education and preparing the public to save lives, the second is providing value to our citizens and giving them the feeling of empowerment when most are feeling helpless. Fires are not the main concern of communities today, and we share a responsibility in allowing that, so if we continue in a fire response mode only, then WE are not the communities main concern and THAT equates to budget and funding. The ARC is moving on this and guess who is getting the value and support, while we complain we can't do it.

    Captnjak all the things you listed are absolutely valid challenges to providing this service. No doubt. However as I stated above, when it comes to the fireground no challenge is too great for us, but when it comes to non-traditional services, that our public wants and values, every challenge becomes an impossibility.

    For example you state lack of space. Vaid. Partner with a school and use a classroom. (example)
    Union and work rules. If a union opposes these efforts then take off your badges. Sorry.

    And in no way would I suggest the public be remotely trained to the level of needing PPE.

    MCIs happen more than you think and a possibility in any community that has a road, a plant, factory, planes flying overhead, etc. What defines an MCI? An incident that overwhelms resources. By your descriptions fire departments can barely fight fire so the potential for an MCI in those communities are pretty great.

    And are you willing to roll the dice and say "Naw, never happen here."
    Teaching folks to deal with a natural disaster is very different from teaching them how to deal with an active shooter. I talk to folks all the time in my area on how to perform some basic actions should there be a weather issue (snow, ice, tornado, etc.). In fact, I have an 12-hour Community response class that runs the gamut from prepping for a natural disaster to basic fire suppression, basic structural search, basic first aid and yes, dealing with things like shootings (from a hunting/wilderness perspective) and doing a few basic actions at vehicle accidents. We are a rural area where fire and EMS can be 15 minutes away on a good day and much farther out should we have to deal with icy roads, snow and downed trees.

    So should we teach them first aid? Yes, but only in the context of first aid and not in the context of an active shooter situation. If the local PD wishes to engage the public in that discussion, it's certainly their call as it is their area of expertise, not ours.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

    Comment


    • #17
      Well Captnjak I can't comment on any community and what they are asking for. I do know is SC after the floods over 3000 people signed up to volunteer to help. That tells me 3000 want to get involved and help their community. I do know in several communities I have worked with its the same thing, people in the community who want to help. CERT teams are growing. Yes Captnjak in many communities the people are interested.

      Ok we are talking about basic first aid which the scouts and Red Cross have been teaching for decades. So maybe ask them. But you continue to go back to liability and simply, as I stated, turning challenges into impossibilities. We can "what if" this to death, think of a 1000 reasons why something will not work, continue to turn a blind eye, and wonder why agencies like the Red Cross are growing with funding, donation, and volunteers, as well as community support. It is happening right now.

      Captnjak I mean this with the upmost respect but you really need to start reading. There are reports, after reports, where civilian interaction was instrumental in saving lives in the INITIAL stages of an incident. So much so there is a new program coming out called "Stop the Bleeding" where it is designed to teach civilians how to stop bleeding and make/utilize tourniquets. This is a certified and approved program just as CPR. Read the National Response Plan, read the Hartford report, read the Boston Bombing after-action, READ and look at the world around you. This is not Daniel Byrne's own thoughts... what I post and state are from such readings combined with personal knowledge.

      Bystanders will be there. So MAYBE part of the training for them is how NOT to get in the way! In the absence of training people will panic and become part of the problem. I have never said make them part of the ICS and turn them into a division. INITIAL STAGES! Apply a bandage, apply a tourniquet, get out of the way.

      Again we can choose to sit in our stations and think of all the reasons why something won't work, or learn what is going on outside our world that is successful, and bring it to our communities. It is happening. It is documented. It is in professional reports from credible agencies, and the results are being made available to people who want to do something - us, ARC, CAP, Boy Scouts, Explorers, etc. Up to you and your department. But remember that when the funding, support, and growth, go to those same agencies.

      Comment


      • #18
        Yes Bones42 you were wrong in so many ways I won't even try to address them all. Very sad. And I hope it is just you.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Daniel Byrne View Post
          Well Captnjak I can't comment on any community and what they are asking for. I do know is SC after the floods over 3000 people signed up to volunteer to help. That tells me 3000 want to get involved and help their community. I do know in several communities I have worked with its the same thing, people in the community who want to help. CERT teams are growing. Yes Captnjak in many communities the people are interested.

          Ok we are talking about basic first aid which the scouts and Red Cross have been teaching for decades. So maybe ask them. But you continue to go back to liability and simply, as I stated, turning challenges into impossibilities. We can "what if" this to death, think of a 1000 reasons why something will not work, continue to turn a blind eye, and wonder why agencies like the Red Cross are growing with funding, donation, and volunteers, as well as community support. It is happening right now.

          Captnjak I mean this with the upmost respect but you really need to start reading. There are reports, after reports, where civilian interaction was instrumental in saving lives in the INITIAL stages of an incident. So much so there is a new program coming out called "Stop the Bleeding" where it is designed to teach civilians how to stop bleeding and make/utilize tourniquets. This is a certified and approved program just as CPR. Read the National Response Plan, read the Hartford report, read the Boston Bombing after-action, READ and look at the world around you. This is not Daniel Byrne's own thoughts... what I post and state are from such readings combined with personal knowledge.

          Bystanders will be there. So MAYBE part of the training for them is how NOT to get in the way! In the absence of training people will panic and become part of the problem. I have never said make them part of the ICS and turn them into a division. INITIAL STAGES! Apply a bandage, apply a tourniquet, get out of the way.

          Again we can choose to sit in our stations and think of all the reasons why something won't work, or learn what is going on outside our world that is successful, and bring it to our communities. It is happening. It is documented. It is in professional reports from credible agencies, and the results are being made available to people who want to do something - us, ARC, CAP, Boy Scouts, Explorers, etc. Up to you and your department. But remember that when the funding, support, and growth, go to those same agencies.
          You stated in an earlier post that there are non-traditional services that the public wants and values. So do you know what they want or don't you? Is this about what you want? Is it about protecting your fiefdom from the big bad Red Cross? You do appear to have a bug up your butt when it comes to them.

          I will remind you again that this thread began with an active shooter incldent. People volunteering to help AFTER a flood cannot be equated with people being taught by the FD how to "react and respond to a shooting" (your words from original post) or an MCI incident (also mentioned in your original post).

          I have no doubt that civilians have contributed greatly in the immediate aftermath of some of these incidents. I still suspect they had more in their background than a first aid class. Likely some military, medical or first responder experience of their own. But I admit it's just a gut feeling and I could be way off base.

          You are correct in that I have not read many of the documents mentioned. Keeping up with our own internal documents is a chore in it's own right. Of course, ours are likely based at least in part on those other documents.

          I do like the idea of a "Stop the Bleeding" program. Unlike you, I don't much care who gets that message out. ARC is fine with me. Should my department somehow jump on board with training in it that's fine with me too. The ARC is no threat whatsoever to my department.

          If there is a vacuum in a particular area and the FD has the resources necessary to teach a "Stop the Bleeding" program then they should do it. My understanding is that many volunteer departments, especially smaller rural ones, face huge obstacles in getting people involved with the FD. For those departments, such a program may simply be unfeasible. If so, telling them to "suck it up" won't make it any more feasible.
          Last edited by captnjak; 12-09-2015, 05:57 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Captnjak

            You're taking this down the wrong road. Yes I know what my community wants. This shooting is something new so in that arena I am not sure. But we are going to increase our first aid classes and working with the schools to get grants for crisis kits for the classrooms. The school system is reaching out for this type of training for their staff. Law is handling the shooting, we are helping with the first aid. SO yes Captjak I do know. As far as reacting to the shooting.... was just a thought.

            Who will be doing it? The engine compaines. Why? Because they want to (for the most part). If one engine is committed for an hour training then a neighboring engine will cover unless it is a fire. We have had the neighboring FD cover while we do these things, and we have covered for them. We ride with two on an engine and have no fulltime educator. This Friday we are bringing Santa to the school. We are able to find the time and make the time because these things are important to us. We have the schools support, county support, and constant messages from the public thanking us. We respond to over 3000 calls a year and an ALS department that protects rural, commercial, industrial, urban, municiple, and also support the two bases in our area when they need us. So we too are busy but find the time because these things are important to us. My previous department we did much more and received national, state, and local awards, for community involvement.

            My point is Captnjak we can sit here all day and debate this. You feel you and your department has no time and if that is what you believe then nothing I say here or offer you will every change that. That is fine. I am only trying to help other department overcome and expand, as I have seen done, and have done. Maybe your department is different and could very well be.

            I have only used the ARC as an example of what is going on. I have commended the ARC for what they are doing, I tip my hat to what they are doing, but I am also warning the fire service about what is going on as well because this is my profession and I care about it, the services we provide, and my community. If the ARC can do it for free then we should be able to do it as well.

            Best of luck Captnjak
            Last edited by Daniel Byrne; 12-09-2015, 06:56 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Daniel Byrne View Post
              Captnjak

              You're taking this down the wrong road. Yes I know what my community wants. This shooting is something new so in that arena I am not sure. But we are going to increase our first aid classes and working with the schools to get grants for crisis kits for the classrooms. The school system is reaching out for this type of training for their staff. Law is handling the shooting, we are helping with the first aid. SO yes Captjak I do know. As far as reacting to the shooting.... was just a thought.

              Who will be doing it? The engine compaines. Why? Because they want to (for the most part). If one engine is committed for an hour training then a neighboring engine will cover unless it is a fire. We have had the neighboring FD cover while we do these things, and we have covered for them. We ride with two on an engine and have no fulltime educator. This Friday we are bringing Santa to the school. We are able to find the time and make the time because these things are important to us. We have the schools support, county support, and constant messages from the public thanking us. We respond to over 3000 calls a year and an ALS department that protects rural, commercial, industrial, urban, municiple, and also support the two bases in our area when they need us. So we too are busy but find the time because these things are important to us. My previous department we did much more and received national, state, and local awards, for community involvement.

              My point is Captnjak we can sit here all day and debate this. You feel you and your department has no time and if that is what you believe then nothing I say here or offer you will every change that. That is fine. I am only trying to help other department overcome and expand, as I have seen done, and have done. Maybe your department is different and could very well be.

              I have only used the ARC as an example of what is going on. I have commended the ARC for what they are doing, I tip my hat to what they are doing, but I am also warning the fire service about what is going on as well because this is my profession and I care about it, the services we provide, and my community. If the ARC can do it for free then we should be able to do it as well.

              Best of luck Captnjak
              At this time, our schools are not asking us for any type of training regarding active shooting incidents. They are working with the Sheriff's Office, but that was after they were approached. There have been a couple of drills, but they were in schools located in the neighboring city (which are still schools run by the parish). The schools that we cover have had some, but minimal interest in planning for such events. if they did, it's likely that the parish EMS agency would be taking the lead in providing that type of EMS-targeted training.

              Quite frankly, the school system here rarely reaches out. It took me several years to develop my in-school prevention program, which now includes 4 lessons each year for every kid in the 3 schools in my fire district each year. It took me several years with incremental steps to get there, but there was a feeling out period where I had to prove that I was delivering a true goals-based educational program rather than a glorified show and tell.

              As far as the greater point, I agree that there are fire agencies that still live inside of their "box". As an example, there is one combination department in a neighboring parish (covering a population of probably 10K-12K) with 5 members on duty per shift that do still not run any type of EMS. Two private ambulance services provides all the EMS coverage.

              I know of several combination fire departments in this area with full-time staff that do very little if any fire prevention in the schools or the community. It's just not something that they seem to think it's important though in most cases, the time does exist for their full-time staff do do more than what they are doing. And I know of departments with full-time prevention staff that go into the schools for one program a year. Again ..... they seem to think that one program is all that they need to do.

              That being said, starting in 2017 the Louisiana fire rating system will reward (slightly) departments getting out in the community and doing more prevention. We are talking about a maximum of 2-3 additional points, but that may spur some departments into doing that. The downside is that if the only reason they are expanding the prevention program to get additional points, one can easily ask what the quality of the prevention delivered will be.

              The fact is there are a lot of departments that probably don't do what they should do in the community, even with the additional rating points on the table. Will that hurt them in the long run? Maybe, or maybe not. Much of that depends on what the community expects.

              In our area, the Red Cross has done very little in terms of prevention. They are primarily an agency that helps residents out after a fire occurs and periodically does a local program on disaster preparedness, and that they do very well. But as of now, they have not gotten into the business of installing smoke detectors or being involved with either fire or injury prevention, and I have heard nothing that leads me to believe that they will.

              Bottom line is that I agree as a service, we do need to spend far more time out of the fire station in the community, but that change will not come easily and will be hampered by budget reductions. There are places where it's happening, but in the end, there will be places where it won't, for a variety of reasons.
              Train to fight the fires you fight.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Daniel Byrne View Post
                Captnjak

                You're taking this down the wrong road. Yes I know what my community wants. This shooting is something new so in that arena I am not sure. But we are going to increase our first aid classes and working with the schools to get grants for crisis kits for the classrooms. The school system is reaching out for this type of training for their staff. Law is handling the shooting, we are helping with the first aid. SO yes Captjak I do know. As far as reacting to the shooting.... was just a thought.

                Who will be doing it? The engine compaines. Why? Because they want to (for the most part). If one engine is committed for an hour training then a neighboring engine will cover unless it is a fire. We have had the neighboring FD cover while we do these things, and we have covered for them. We ride with two on an engine and have no fulltime educator. This Friday we are bringing Santa to the school. We are able to find the time and make the time because these things are important to us. We have the schools support, county support, and constant messages from the public thanking us. We respond to over 3000 calls a year and an ALS department that protects rural, commercial, industrial, urban, municiple, and also support the two bases in our area when they need us. So we too are busy but find the time because these things are important to us. My previous department we did much more and received national, state, and local awards, for community involvement.

                My point is Captnjak we can sit here all day and debate this. You feel you and your department has no time and if that is what you believe then nothing I say here or offer you will every change that. That is fine. I am only trying to help other department overcome and expand, as I have seen done, and have done. Maybe your department is different and could very well be.

                I have only used the ARC as an example of what is going on. I have commended the ARC for what they are doing, I tip my hat to what they are doing, but I am also warning the fire service about what is going on as well because this is my profession and I care about it, the services we provide, and my community. If the ARC can do it for free then we should be able to do it as well.

                Best of luck Captnjak
                My department (FDNY) has resources that very few departments, if any, can match. There are numerous outreach programs in place. Many work out of headquarters and have little to no impact on field units. Some are delivered by field units also. I didn't enter this discussion from an FDNY standpoint. I entered from the standpoint of what I believe many departments are faced with. I do believe many departments face real challenges in this area, not just excuse-making.

                Your department is to be commended for what it is accomplishing. Clearly it has taken a pro-active stance. I just don't know that others can match it. I fully agree that if there is a vacuum in the area those that can do it should do it.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Daniel Byrne View Post
                  Yes Bones42 you were wrong in so many ways I won't even try to address them all. Very sad. And I hope it is just you.
                  Daniel, anytime you want to come and tell us how to do our thing right, your welcome. But please try to schedule it with us beforehand. We will have to take off work to meet with you most likely. We are volunteer. FH duties come after work, after the family...we leave those 2 to answer calls when needed. Not too many guys with free time to teach people things that we are not the experts on. I guess we are wrong in that we don't run EMS. There is an EMS agency that does that and they do just fine. Funding/budgets? We are doing fine. We can easily justify to our town government our needs. You say you run with 2 on an engine. We run with 5 to 7. Low volunteerism? I have no spare gear stalls and no room left to add them. Maybe that's due to us sticking to the core mission of a fire department and not branching out to be the do all, end all, know all. Guys who want to do EMS, join the EMS agency and don't have to worry about fire training. Guys who want to do fire stuff, join the FD and don't have to worry about EMS training. Guys that want to do both....wait for it.....join both! Been there, done that, got way too many T-shirts.

                  Do I know what my schools want? More than most people....I work there. I am part of the school planning. We ask the right people to assist us with our planning...not someone looking to justify the use of their "down" time.

                  You want to tell me I'm wrong because a lady with a leaking faucet was told to call a plumber to fix it....go for it. I guess, in your world, I could have taken my engine there and we could have shut her water off. That would have stopped the leak....but not fixed the problem. But hey.....the FD would have been there!

                  Daniel....I like seeing your passion for what you are doing.....I just don't always agree with it.
                  "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Compliments Captnjak, FDNY. Should also mention that your department posted a full year without a fire death last year I believe? That is truly an amazing accomplishment. Varied fire departments in our country with many challenges, one common thread is they are fighting for survival and budget.

                    I have served in both urban, municiple, rural, and airport - from volunteer to career, from backstep to officer. Some depts can do much more, some maybe only one or two events a month. But you never know who in that audience may be a life saved, a home, or one of our own because that is now one less incident to respond to. You can't make that difference without a vision, tools, direction, and some belief that it can be done. That is my hope and goal here and with the articles I write.

                    Wish I knew you were FDNY! I was in NYC for three days last month and at the parade with my family. Would have loved to meet up with you for a drink or seven. And a serious, off forum topic question, why no FDNY trucks in the parade? My wife and I were listening for sirens we thought would indicate the end yet there was Santa... no fire trucks. We were at the very end of the route by Macy's though.

                    Stay safe my brother.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Daniel Byrne View Post
                      Compliments Captnjak, FDNY. Should also mention that your department posted a full year without a fire death last year I believe? That is truly an amazing accomplishment. Varied fire departments in our country with many challenges, one common thread is they are fighting for survival and budget.

                      I have served in both urban, municiple, rural, and airport - from volunteer to career, from backstep to officer. Some depts can do much more, some maybe only one or two events a month. But you never know who in that audience may be a life saved, a home, or one of our own because that is now one less incident to respond to. You can't make that difference without a vision, tools, direction, and some belief that it can be done. That is my hope and goal here and with the articles I write.

                      Wish I knew you were FDNY! I was in NYC for three days last month and at the parade with my family. Would have loved to meet up with you for a drink or seven. And a serious, off forum topic question, why no FDNY trucks in the parade? My wife and I were listening for sirens we thought would indicate the end yet there was Santa... no fire trucks. We were at the very end of the route by Macy's though.

                      Stay safe my brother.
                      We just don't put rigs in parades. With the exception of one antique rig that does do some. We march in many of the city's parades but that's it, no rigs. The rigs belong in the firehouses ready to respond. You mentioned earlier your 3000 responses. Is that one engine or the entire department? The units around me are all doing 3000 or more per year. The units in Midtown where the parade was average around 5000 per year or more now.

                      Fires are down. I believe we did go a full year without a fire related death last year. (Can't swear to it) Emergencies are way up. Medical mostly but we respond to almost everything. Water leaks like bones mentioned, natural gas leaks, all manner of electrical emergencies from flickering lights to sparking wires to overheated ballasts, structural conditions, MVA's, odors of all types, oil burner malfunctions, hazmat spills, alarm system activations, steam leaks, lockouts, lock ins, stalled elevators, trees down, CO incidents, and just about anything else that somebody somewhere THINKS is an emergency. Not to mention our gas and electric distribution systems that are overloaded and very old keep us very busy.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Yep saw the antique. We run out of five stations so as compared to the FDNY we are a simple operation. But we protect 93 square miles with those five. Engines in the populated areas carry our work. But we have two FFs on an engine except one which is three, and respond to all you have said. Five stations in 93 square miles is a lot when you take an engine out for an event.

                        When I write I do write with my department and other like mine in mind. Big cities have full time prevention divisions that handle the load, but majority of the departments I have met out presenting and my personal experience are just like mine; handful of stations, one to two man engine companies, etc. Many are mostly volunteer with a paid driver. So those are the ones I have in mind. Departments not so ingrained in the budget and fighting to survive and justify. Also departments that are not unionized for the most part.

                        I was staff officer on a department when a new city manager came in and turned the city upside down and accomplished things with fire & PD that no one thought he could do..... he used the fear of the recession. That department has reduced the medical calls it responds to, forced to buy smaller fire trucks "mini pumpers," sold a tower platform that was like new (insurance), decimated the prevention programs, etc. I was there and watched his justifications and how he was able to turn the public into making the FD look like the bad guys and the budget sinkhole. "Why do we pay firefighters to sleep," and used that to TRY to reduce staffing, and actually tried to get the council to purchase European style fire trucks!!! I learned a GREAT deal from that experience, and in my travels I learned my department wasn't alone.

                        While I relaize my advise and articles to not apply to all fire departments, I do believe it will help many.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Daniel Byrne View Post
                          Yep saw the antique. We run out of five stations so as compared to the FDNY we are a simple operation. But we protect 93 square miles with those five. Engines in the populated areas carry our work. But we have two FFs on an engine except one which is three, and respond to all you have said. Five stations in 93 square miles is a lot when you take an engine out for an event.

                          When I write I do write with my department and other like mine in mind. Big cities have full time prevention divisions that handle the load, but majority of the departments I have met out presenting and my personal experience are just like mine; handful of stations, one to two man engine companies, etc. Many are mostly volunteer with a paid driver. So those are the ones I have in mind. Departments not so ingrained in the budget and fighting to survive and justify. Also departments that are not unionized for the most part.

                          I was staff officer on a department when a new city manager came in and turned the city upside down and accomplished things with fire & PD that no one thought he could do..... he used the fear of the recession. That department has reduced the medical calls it responds to, forced to buy smaller fire trucks "mini pumpers," sold a tower platform that was like new (insurance), decimated the prevention programs, etc. I was there and watched his justifications and how he was able to turn the public into making the FD look like the bad guys and the budget sinkhole. "Why do we pay firefighters to sleep," and used that to TRY to reduce staffing, and actually tried to get the council to purchase European style fire trucks!!! I learned a GREAT deal from that experience, and in my travels I learned my department wasn't alone.

                          While I realize my advise and articles to not apply to all fire departments, I do believe it will help many.
                          That recession in '08 may turn out in the long term to hurt FD's more than any other entity. Too many saw it as an opportunity to cut budgets. Paying them to sleep? Sure, until your house is on fire. Or one of us gets hurt or dies. Then we're heroes again. At least for a little while until the next budget "crisis". A crisis that is usually created by poor planning by those at city/town/village hall. Economic recovery comes with population growth/increased density, businesses expanding and new businesses opening. All of those new people, residences, businesses, etc. need the protections provided by FD's. So now it costs more to put back resources than were saved by cutting resources in the first place. Holy Smoke! Yet another "crisis" develops. Anyone seen this?

                          Of course, if those resources aren't restored that economic recovery will stall out before long. They'll probably call that a crisis too.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Well I believe it’s double trouble. This new generation of computer savvy-liner thinking leaders play statistics. "Statistically calls in this neighborhood, this time, this type of call, etc. is most often false, so we will reduce response or not run lights and sirens." ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? Our whole existence is based upon Murphy's Law, and are you willing to save a few bucks and bet on your house or heart attack not falling outside the statistical norm?

                            I brought this up earlier on Privatization and stirred the pot and you and I Captnjak discussed it. But every time the economy tanks privatization is pushed and governments go to businesses to learn how to be more "efficient" with strong bottom lines. On the surface makes sense and citizens buy off on it. THAT is where this statistical gamble comes in because those types of studies and numbers work in private business.

                            It was UNREAL what I heard come out of this guys mouth and STILL see in the news on these theories. We have to be on guard for this and prepared to counter. Not stick our heads in the sand and say "It will never happen."

                            See Captnjak, we’re not too far off on our perspectives. :-)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Daniel Byrne View Post
                              Well I believe it’s double trouble. This new generation of computer savvy-liner thinking leaders play statistics. "Statistically calls in this neighborhood, this time, this type of call, etc. is most often false, so we will reduce response or not run lights and sirens." ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? Our whole existence is based upon Murphy's Law, and are you willing to save a few bucks and bet on your house or heart attack not falling outside the statistical norm?

                              I brought this up earlier on Privatization and stirred the pot and you and I Captnjak discussed it. But every time the economy tanks privatization is pushed and governments go to businesses to learn how to be more "efficient" with strong bottom lines. On the surface makes sense and citizens buy off on it. THAT is where this statistical gamble comes in because those types of studies and numbers work in private business.

                              It was UNREAL what I heard come out of this guys mouth and STILL see in the news on these theories. We have to be on guard for this and prepared to counter. Not stick our heads in the sand and say "It will never happen."

                              See Captnjak, we’re not too far off on our perspectives. :-)
                              They want to look at the FD as if it's a business. They want to find revenue streams everywhere and God forbid you don't generate some revenue. Off with your head! We must be looked at as an insurance policy. No one ever thinks about insurance until something happens. Same with us. Then everyone is glad we're there. Plus, many people go their entire lives without calling for us. Clearly can be an uphill battle.

                              We're not far off on our perspectives. But I have learned from this forum that some departments have real life challenges that may not be able to be overcome. They can barely provide the core service, never mind expanding their role in the community.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Bones what can I say?

                                Yes. The attitude in your post was wrong based upon the way it was written. When you make a post like that then I think it is safe to say you will get a like response. Your post offered no explanation. No clarification. No description. I like to use the forums to share ideas, support, motivate, discuss. Not argue and talk about how the world is against us and we can't get anything done. Based upon my previous posts and articles.... what exactly did you think I would say to your post?

                                There are people in all kinds of departments in these forums with all kinds of challenges. I have NO way to tell what their situation is unless they tell me. But I would like to think that by posting possibilities MAYBE someone may be able to use it and make a difference, maybe it doesn't apply, but the only way to create opportunities and possibilities is to offer suggestions, examples, and offer support. Simply making a post like yours is in no way helpful without substance. In fact it is opposite of the firefighter attitude. And I will still say if that is your attitude then yes.... sorry.... it is wrong, and for people who may be using this forum to try an improve their department and themsevles (which I would like to believe is the majority) I am not going to let a post like that go without a comment. Sorry.

                                I have seen many departments with their back against the wall turn things around and the core driver in that is a positive person(s) who overcome, and see challenges not problems. This isn't some locker room motivational speech or taken out of some "self improvement" book, put personal experiences and from traveling and presenting and meeting firefighters from coast to coast. Yep I have been told to go to hell. I also have received e-mails from people who have applied something I said and it worked. The "thank yous" FAR outweigh the "go to hells" so I will keep trying to help and offer the things I have learned over the years.

                                If what I say doesn't apply simply ignore it. If you offer a problem as to why what I have said won't work I will offer a solution. If it doesn't apply ignore it. If you don't want a solution or suggestion don't post your problem. If your posts are solely to try and make someone think they are wrong you are wasting finger strength, because as I have said the things I post are not things I just think up over a beer. These are things I have seen work. No amount of "you are wrong" will change that.

                                If you read any of my articles and posts you would have seen I am HIGHLY complementary to volunteers and have even stated when it comes to volunteers I have no answers just suggestions. That's all I can offer and as long as I wear a badge, I am in this brotherhood, I will ALWAYS offer suggestions and possibilities. I will never jump in the pity pool and tell some volunteer that "yes, you're screwed, just shut your doors." But I will continue to offer help based upon fact and experience.

                                Volunteers are true heroes. They didn't become like that by being defeatest.

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