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  • Nfpa violations

    Recently I was involved with a heated discussion with an ex chief from one of our neighboring departments about whether or not a fire department can be sued over injuries or fatalities resulting from a direct violation of a NFPA standard. Even though we strongly disagreed with each other neither of us could provide any evidence to dismiss the other allegations. Does anyone out there know if this is true? And if so does anyone out there have any examples of departments being sued because of NFPA violations that resulted in death and injury?

  • #2
    If your state has adopted the NFPA standards as a law, which some have, you can be fined by the voliation of those standards, which are now law.

    If your state has not adopted the NFPA standards as alw, the answer is no. That being siad, the NFPA standards have become in many places, the "industry standard" in the courtroom. If your department is is sued by a homeowner for an ineffective operation, a civilian for injury or damages, or the family of a member injured or killed while performing for the fire department, the plantiffs will use that in thier case and will argue that your department has not met what is considered the "industry standard". In all liklihood, you will lose.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    • #3
      Are you asking about firefighters not following nfpa firefighting standards

      Or a business not following nfpa standards and the fd not enforcing those ???

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      • #4
        Thanks Lafireeducator that helped to solve some oof the confusion. And fire5555 I'm talking about firefighters/ fire departments not following nfpa standards.

        Comment


        • #5
          You can also be sued for following the guidelines... the initiation of a lawsuit is not dependent on facts, laws or standards. The initiation of a lawsuit is about having enough money for a lawyer.
          I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

          "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

          "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
            You can also be sued for following the guidelines... the initiation of a lawsuit is not dependent on facts, laws or standards. The initiation of a lawsuit is about having enough money for a lawyer.
            Very true.

            But at least you will have the fact that your are following the standards on your side, and it will be more difficult for the plantiffs to be successful.
            Train to fight the fires you fight.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
              Very true.

              But at least you will have the fact that your are following the standards on your side, and it will be more difficult for the plantiffs to be successful.
              Maybe..... maybe not.
              I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

              "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

              "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                Very true.

                But at least you will have the fact that your are following the standards on your side, and it will be more difficult for the plantiffs to be successful.
                Would that kind of be like a dept. following/not following something along the lines of a national training standard?
                Stay Safe
                Bull


                “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
                - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

                Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
                -WINSTON CHURCHILL

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                • #9
                  If you look at the standard, it allows for modifications by the AHJ, which if you are not an NFPA-as-law state, is the fire department.

                  Read it closely. The fire department does have the right to adopt parts, and not adopt parts if it if it is not mandated by law in their state, as they are the AHJ.
                  Train to fight the fires you fight.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                    If you look at the standard, it allows for modifications by the AHJ, which if you are not an NFPA-as-law state, is the fire department.

                    Read it closely. The fire department does have the right to adopt parts, and not adopt parts if it if it is not mandated by law in their state, as they are the AHJ.
                    They always have the right, as the standards are not law, unless adopted by statute.

                    The question is; on what do you base those modifications? Are you relying on another set of standards that have been vetted by a professional organization?

                    Or are you changing them based on:
                    a) We are "different" then everywhere else in the country.
                    b) Bubba says this is a better way.
                    c) It interferes with our fundraising.
                    d) It *might* cause us to lose people.
                    e) We don't have any buildings with *insert variable here*, so we don't need *insert technique or specific tactic here*.

                    Good luck with that...
                    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      jcrampton14 just wanted to let you know that I'm truly sorry for what is going to happen next.

                      If things hold to their historical pattern. LA who always loves to tell everyone else what standards, guidelines and such and such they should follow, "Because We are training our FF to die/get killed" (his words not mine) is going to go in great detail on why those NFPA rules that he loves to talk about do not apply to him or his dept.

                      And now back to our regular schedule program.
                      Stay Safe
                      Bull


                      “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
                      - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

                      Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
                      -WINSTON CHURCHILL

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BULL321 View Post
                        jcrampton14 just wanted to let you know that I'm truly sorry for what is going to happen next.

                        If things hold to their historical pattern. LA who always loves to tell everyone else what standards, guidelines and such and such they should follow, "Because We are training our FF to die/get killed" (his words not mine) is going to go in great detail on why those NFPA rules that he loves to talk about do not apply to him or his dept.

                        And now back to our regular schedule program.
                        You're the one that brought up the subject of training standards, not me. I have no love of NFPA standards, especially training, which far to many members of the fire service take as the be all and end all of training.
                        Train to fight the fires you fight.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                          You're the one that brought up the subject of training standards, not me. I have no love of NFPA standards, especially training, which far to many members of the fire service take as the be all and end all of training.
                          One of the many reasons why no one takes you seriously as a firefighter. Particularly when it comes to tactics.
                          They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

                          I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                            You're the one that brought up the subject of training standards, not me. I have no love of NFPA standards, especially training, which far to many members of the fire service take as the be all and end all of training.
                            I did bring it up, but it was in jest. To be honest I was/am baiting you! I'm sorry, I should not have done it, but sometimes you just make it so damn easy!
                            Stay Safe
                            Bull


                            “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
                            - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

                            Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
                            -WINSTON CHURCHILL

                            Comment

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