Cummins Diesel?

[bullet14]

I am sure this was talked about before on this site, but, up until now I had no interest in the matter. Now our small company is looking into purchasing an engine that must last us 20 years or so. So many engines are now equipped with Cummins diesels. Some members of my company whose opinion I expect and are diesel mechanics say that Cummins diesels require up to 10 minutes of warmup before hitting the road. They feel we will have trouble with Cummins engined apparatus.

Does anyone have any experiences or observations they can share with us?

[Catch22]

It's my understanding that all diesels ideally need to warm up to operating temperatures prior to being driven, especially the way we drive and operate them in the fire service. As such, a Cummins is no different in that regards as any other diesel.

We've got Cummins in most of the trucks at my FT department and a new truck with a Cummins in it with my vollie. Haven't seen any problems with them out of the norm at work, which was part of the reason we went to them in our vollie truck (plus our diesel mechanic insisted on a Cummins).

[ChiefDog]

I am sure this was talked about before on this site, but, up until now I had no interest in the matter. Now our small company is looking into purchasing an engine that must last us 20 years or so. So many engines are now equipped with Cummins diesels. Some members of my company whose opinion I expect and are diesel mechanics say that Cummins diesels require up to 10 minutes of warmup before hitting the road. They feel we will have trouble with Cummins engined apparatus.

Does anyone have any experiences or observations they can share with us?

Is this the first diesel you will have in your front line apparatus? I would not think that the diesel is a huge issue. Every large piece of apparatus has them. They will not go up to full rated power until they are up to normal operating temperature but that is the emissions. If that is an issue then you need to spec more power so that even when cold it has enough.

I would ask the people making you concerned what their specific issue is. Then once you know what it is, does it make sense?

[VanIsleEVT]

Are your trucks not plugged in to shore power? As in block heaters. Any engine should be at normal operating temp before asking for full power. If the truck doesn't have a high call volume, put the block heater on a timer so that it comes on for a half hour and then goes off for a half hour.
There's nothing wrong with a Cummins.

[Chief1FF]

I am sure this was talked about before on this site, but, up until now I had no interest in the matter. Now our small company is looking into purchasing an engine that must last us 20 years or so. So many engines are now equipped with Cummins diesels. Some members of my company whose opinion I expect and are diesel mechanics say that Cummins diesels require up to 10 minutes of warmup before hitting the road. They feel we will have trouble with Cummins engined apparatus.

Does anyone have any experiences or observations they can share with us?

My department has a small Cummins in a 1991 E-one. When it is cold here in the Northeast it will not get out of its own way until it is warmed up. The rest of our apparatus have Detroit's in them and they great right out of the hole. If you have cold conditions in the winter and you are getting a Cummins make sure it is one with a bigger horse power rating. The Cummins with the larger horse power rating seem to have much less problems.

[lvwrench]

I would agree with VanisleEVT that if you are in the colder part of the country and don't have a warmed enclosed bay area, and even if you do, that a oil pan heater and /or block heater would be a must to maintain temperatures of the engine fluids.

[PiecePilot]

I have to agree with Chief1FF, I've recently had the opportunity to drive similar trucks with 500+ hp Detroit 60, Cummins and twin-turbo Cats. The Detroit has the best out-of-the-hole performance, boost comes on strong and quick, which is a good thing when trying to get clear of busy intersections, cross streets or just pull out into traffic. Cummins seems to have more turbo lag but runs really well once it's rolling. Either way you get used to the performance of the vehicle and it's usually not a problem. I can't speak about cold performance of the Cummins... it ain't that cold here.

Another thing to think about:

Some manufacturers build lots of trucks with all three brands of powerplants and if that's the case with the manuf that your buying from it doesn't really matter, it's your choice... but others don't. So it's a good idea to check with the manufacturer and see if they build a disproportionate number of vehicles with a paticular brand of engine. When we bought some Quantum engines a couple years ago the question about engine manuf. came up at the pre-con and the Pierce engineer said they were doing about 90% Detroit power. He said most of the engineering, electronics, software and updates were done for, or to interface with, the Detroit/Allison electronics. For that reason we went with Detroit. They will build you whatever you want, but having something out of the ordinary for the manufacturer can be a draw back when you need service from them.

[ChiefDog]

I have to agree with Chief1FF, I've recently had the opportunity to drive similar trucks with 500+ hp Detroit 60, Cummins and twin-turbo Cats. The Detroit has the best out-of-the-hole performance, boost comes on strong and quick, which is a good thing when trying to get clear of busy intersections, cross streets or just pull out into traffic. Cummins seems to have more turbo lag but runs really well once it's rolling. Either way you get used to the performance of the vehicle and it's usually not a problem. I can't speak about cold performance of the Cummins... it ain't that cold here.

Another thing to think about:

Some manufacturers build lots of trucks with all three brands of powerplants and if that's the case with the manuf that your buying from it doesn't really matter, it's your choice... but others don't. So it's a good idea to check with the manufacturer and see if they build a disproportionate number of vehicles with a paticular brand of engine. When we bought some Quantum engines a couple years ago the question about engine manuf. came up at the pre-con and the Pierce engineer said they were doing about 90% Detroit power. He said most of the engineering, electronics, software and updates were done for, or to interface with, the Detroit/Allison electronics. For that reason we went with Detroit. They will build you whatever you want, but having something out of the ordinary for the manufacturer can be a draw back when you need service from them.

Good advice PiecePilot.... now add to the mix the available local service you can get on the choice you think you want. Now rethink it, does it still make sense? Builder A uses Detroits and you don't have a Detroit Service Ctr for 150 miles and the Cummins is across town.... can you live with that? Or is Builder B who uses mostly Cummins with equivalent end product the better choice? You need to be able to make that choice for yourself. None of us will have to live with it for 20 years, you will.

[firetdriver99]

I am sure this was talked about before on this site, but, up until now I had no interest in the matter. Now our small company is looking into purchasing an engine that must last us 20 years or so. So many engines are now equipped with Cummins diesels. Some members of my company whose opinion I expect and are diesel mechanics say that Cummins diesels require up to 10 minutes of warmup before hitting the road. They feel we will have trouble with Cummins engined apparatus.

Does anyone have any experiences or observations they can share with us?

Dont know about the warm up, but we had "notice the HAD part" a Cummings in a 1998 FL70 Engine that we couldnt keep out of the shop for various oil leaks and power problems the rest of ours are detroit and we have had no problems at all with them.

[canuck1]

block heaters

aren't there also problems associated with leaving block heaters plugged in all the time (even if they are on timers) Ie . coolant turning to acid and causing corrosion problems?

Is the re-circulating block heater the answer to this problem? Or are coolant changes required more frequently?

Is an oil pan heater as effective as a block heater?

[lvwrench]

Of the units that we have had that had block heaters installed, mostly Ford ambulances with the 7.3, there was never an issue with the coolant causing problems if the ph balance is maintained. As far as an advantage of block heater over oil pan heater it depends on the system set up ie: some things may be activated by either the oil or the coolant at operating temperature. Given heat transfer either one should suffice unless you are living in Alaska conditions then you would want both. Know your area conditions. the sensors that may be involved and adjust accordingly to the need to have such items.

[SSHANK42]

Is a block heater needed if the truck is stored in heated bays that do not drop 65 F?

[lvwrench]

If your bays keep things at that temp you should be just fine. Of course that is not the operating temp of the engine or trans but will certainly make things much easier for start up and run. We don't get freezing temps too often here and even then not for sustained periods except on rare occasions. Our reserves that are parked outside are then pulled inside to preclude possible freeze up. In my mind any temp above freezing prevents problems with the pump system and for easier start up and the further up the temp range from freezing the better as far as startup of the engine goes. The only reason for a block or oil pan heater beyond that point would be if their is a chance that the bay heaters give out and you are in a real cold environment. A back up plan is always a good thing to have.

[Rescue101]

We've run Cummins exclusively since the early nineties.They are kept in bays heated to 50F.Fire and floorboard,no problems.If you leave them outside below 30-40F,you better plug them in or you won't be a happy camper.We DO NOT use the mini mouse versions,all of ours are L10(old)or ISM in the newer ones.Cummins Northeast takes care of any major service issues outside of PM.So far that's amounted to one reprogramming and one EGR tube. Our next rig will be Cummins as will the one after that.Don't worry about the "warm to operating temperature before using",it's an old tale and not applicable to Fire service and the modern diesel engine. Nice? Yes. Feasible? No! Look at your service facilities and pick the powerplant that fits your needs. T.C.

[Fire304]

If you read your opperator's manuals you'll see every brand of engine requires a "proper" warm up. The reason is simple, the combustion chamber of a diesel runs over 1000F, if the outside of the block, just 1 inch away, is 65F when the engine is "cold" there is a huge potential for cracking large parts when you stand it. That said, I've never seen a fire service engine crack, so they must be building them right. Maybe this was the problem "back in the day,"... Rescue101, you remember those days don't you?

Block heaters vs oil heaters: Block heaters make your engine start and run better cold, oil heaters make them last longer and help starting a little. Don't really need either if you bay is heated. Most engines today come with some sort of cold start feature, such as Cummin's intake Grid Heater, and some other "smart" tricks to get the engine to fire cold.

BTW, never use ether on engines equiped with intake heater devices... BOOM

Cummins vs. DD vs. Cat: Have not seen a Cat fire service engine newer than a 3208, so no experience there. There is no doubt in my mind, if you can afford the Detriot, get it. Cummins is OK, but for reasons too lengthy to get into I'd much rather have a DD. Unfortunately not all trucks come with the choice of all three engines, the DD is a huge engine and won't fit in some models.