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  • #31
    The main reason we use the water thief is to help reduce the friction loss and engine pressure. Plus if you go through a narrow breeze way or other small opening you only have to worry about one line instead of two or more.

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    • #32
      All of our trucks have
      (2) 200' 1 3/4
      (1) 200' 2 1/2 crosslays
      600' 2 1/2 in the hosebed
      and our main out engine at St 1 has a 1" booster
      Josh Ball
      FF/EMT - Zoneton Fire Protection District
      PSO II - Louisville International Airport
      Deputy - Bullitt County Sheriff's Office

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      • #33
        Being from a part of the world that gets cold, we have trucks with a top mount pump control in an enclosed heated cab, on a commercial chassis. There is a provision within the cab to seat three firefighters. Under the seat is where the speedlays (crosslays) are, although there is a provision for crosslays above the side pump panels (if specified on truck order).

        We use a traditional flat lay for the first layer, and then extend the lay to form two loops (for each speedlay) on each side of the truck. Then we continue with the traditional flat lay, and finally keep the nozzle somewhere in the middle of the hose load.

        This allows the firefighters to grab a loop from either side of the truck, and pull the entire load off on one or both speedlays. We find that this type of loading allows us to have twin 200ft (1 ¾”) attack lines on either side of the truck, or pull one line off each side as required.

        Stay Safe

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        • #34
          Hose questions and what we run

          Our new engines carry.

          2- 200' 1 3/4 with 175 gpm fogs at 120 psi- speedlay
          1- 200' 2 1/2 with 1 3/8 tip (390gpm @ 90psi) - speedlay-
          1- 400' 2 1/2 leader with a 1 1/4" leader tip- rear bed
          1- 600' 3" to 100' skid of 1 3/4"- rear bed
          1000' 5"

          1- 100' 1 3/4" standpipe pack
          1- 100' trashline front bumper

          The speedlays were on a flowmeter to check the numbers

          Also, do any of you run PONN supreme or conquest. I have an opportunity to change over from ANGUS Ultima and Ultima Lite. If you do run the PONN please give the pros and cons.

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          • #35
            My VFD Department has:
            1 Trashline in the front bumper of 100ft of 1 3/4"
            2 Crosslays each cross lay is 200ft of 1 3/4"
            and
            1 Rear preconnect 200ft of 2 1-2"
            All nozzles are Automatic Fog nozzles.

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            • #36
              200' of 1 3/4" hose with an 8' section of 1 3/4 connected to the truck for easy disconnecting from the crosslay.

              150' of 2 1/2" hose

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              • #37
                Our engine 3 top mount 1000gpm Waterous/1000 gal, 40 gal. foam with 2 color coded 200' 1 3/4 cross-lays with Cafs smoothbore nozzles, on the back of cab ,
                1 250' 2 1/2 with a fog combo nozzle behind rear of pump station
                2 300' 2 1/2 pre-connects from rear hose-bed 1 CAFS ,1 combo nozzle
                1,250 4" ldh in hose-bed for lay in.
                all pre-connects have 1st length color coded to pump panel
                additional 250' of 1 3/4 rolled in compartment for those long lays around back of structures.

                engine 1 exact same hose load
                1000 gpm hale 1000 gal tank top mount with out CAFS

                Both on tilt cab commercial cab-overs for outstanding maneuverability. This works well for us as most structures are set back from drives and roadways

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                • #38
                  Our Engine has:

                  (3) 200' 1 3/4" crosslays with Akron Saberjets
                  (1) 100' 1 3/4" bumper line with Akron Turbojet
                  (1) 300' 2 1/2" off the back with 15/16" smoothbore.
                  (1) 200' 2 1/2" off the back with 15/16" smoothbore.

                  The Engine also carries 700' of 1 3/4", 700' 0f 2 1/2" for additional lines / reach. All of the pre-connected lines have pump gauges, controls, nozzles and hose all color coded for ease of identification.

                  We use the Ponn Supreme hose also, works pretty good. The one thing we noticed is that when it is new and gets wet it becomes slippery with a soap-like lather.

                  The other two Engines are different and I don't recall their lines, nor the ones on the Quint.
                  "Roundhead642"
                  NEVER FORGET
                  Lt. Michael E. Neuner Sr. #585
                  Last Alarm 6/22/97 Brewster FD
                  "There's no harm in asking..."

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                  • #39
                    Our two engines:

                    Engine 11 ('89 Spartan/FMC, 1500gpm/1000 gallons)
                    4- 1 3/4"x200' with TFT Thunderfogs preset at 125 gpm
                    2- 2 1/2"x200', one with a fog one with stacked tips.
                    1- 1 1/2"x100' trash line, wyed off pass. side discharge with basket in running board.

                    The way this truck's set up, we have three speedlays in front of the pump and two crosslays behind the panel (top mount, one crosslay is one of the 2 1/2") and the other 2 1/2" off the rear in the hosebed. All of the lays except the top speedlay, which is not covered, is triple-layer loaded. The top speedlay is flat loaded so we can use it in shorter sections if needed. Simply pull what we need and connect it to the open connection on the trashline's wye.

                    Engine 12 ('07 KW/Rosenbauer, 1750gpm/2500 gallons)
                    3- 1 3/4"x200' triple layer loads above pump
                    2- 2 1/2"x200 triple layer loads in hosebed
                    1- 1 1/2"x100' trash line, wyed off pass. side discharge with basket in running board.

                    Both truck also carry a 1 1/2"x150' "hotel pack" on them. What we use them for is long hoselays when needed. We'll pull off one of the 2 1/2" preconnects and wye it into the hotel pack. If we need a second line, we'll pull the pack off the other truck or use one of the preconnects and drag it to the wye.

                    One of the biggest reasons we use 200' on the preconnects is for ISO. The other reason is we'd rather have too much hose than not enough. We've had too many fires when we ran 150' preconnects that we had to add a section to get where we needed. The extra 50' has made a major difference.

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                    • #40
                      First out rigs (including the quint):

                      1 100' 1 3/4 bumper line (fog)
                      1 150' 1 3/4" crosslay (fog)
                      1 200' 1 3/4" crosslay, water/foam (fog)
                      1 150' 2 1/2" crosslay (solid-bore)
                      1 200' 3" crosslay with gated wye (for courtyard lay).

                      The reserve rigs dont have the bumper line, and the 2 1/2" and courtyard lay go off the rear.

                      The rest of the load is 200' 3" reverse loaded for standpipes, 1000' 5" LDH for supply and a standpipe pack made up of 2 100' sections of 2".
                      Last edited by Dave1983; 02-17-2007, 04:48 PM.
                      Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

                      IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

                      "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
                      RUSH-Tom Sawyer

                      Success is when skill meets opportunity
                      Failure is when fantasy meets reality

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                      • #41
                        Crosslays

                        Bumper line: 100' 1 1/2" for car, dumpster and trash fires (yellow hose)
                        Preconnect 1 is a 150' 1 3/4" with a combination nozzle (red hose)
                        Preconnect 2 is a 200' 2" with a vindicator nozzle (blue hose)
                        Preconnect 3 is a 200' 2" with a combination nozzle (blue hose)
                        Rear is a 250' 2 1/2" with stack tips (brown hose)

                        Give your crews the tools to do the job, the training to properly operate them and then let them make the decision on what to pull.

                        We are also forunate to be able to carry both a 5 and 6" supply hose for larger incidents.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          How I heard the lenghts were developed.

                          Just a comment on how the cross lay line was told to me. The cross lay concept was developed for your normal 2 1/2 story bedroom community. This concept applies to about 80% of America.
                          The front of the fire building belongs to the Truck. We Enginemen concede the front since we get to actually put out the fire and their ladders are limited in length. Since the ladder has the front of the fire building the engine parks one house adjacent to the fire building in either direction.
                          One 50'length of hose is used to go from the spot where the engine is parked, down the street to in front of the dwelling. The second 50' length of hose goes from the street to the front of the dwelling. The third and fourth lengths are the interior operational lengths, one hundred feet of hose is usually enough to cover all areas of a standard dwelling.
                          As the line is stretched the distances are usually shorter than the preset lengths. That extra approx. 20 to 30 feet of extra hose, when properly stretched gives you additional interior operations length.
                          The cross lay design works 80% of the time in normal America. If the fire conditions or building design requires more hose then what the cross lay can give the stretch should come off the back. Allot of engine utilize the reverse lay. The reverse lay is 150' of 1 3/4 hose reducer adaptered from a 2 1/2 hose lay of 500' to 750' depending on your response area needs and distances between hydrants. The Reverse Lay allows the engine to drop in front of the fire building and proceed to the hydrant.
                          The design of the cross lay has exact lengths for a reason. making the lay 250' or 300' defeats the ability of a minimum manpower hose line stretch. I guess a 300' cross Lay could be an option if all your homes were set back over 100' with large front lawns. But that's not norm. If your district isn't made of McMansions or 6 story "H" types, I think the saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it." applies here.

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                          • #43
                            We looked at our community and our buildings and set-backs to determine preconnect lengths. We do not run a truck company and our standard operating guidelines have the first engine position in the most advantageous position for a quick attack on the fire using pre-connects if possible from tank water while a water supply is being established.

                            We found that 200 feet would handle about 90% of our calls, but that we had places where that would not be enough so we added 300 foot preconnects too. We also added a 500 foot 3 inch apartment line in the hosebed with a wye and 100 feet of attack hose attached.

                            We do not use 1 1/2, 1 3/4, or 2 1/2 inch hose for fire attack. All of our attack lines are 2 inch with 200 gpm at 75 psi nozzles with a 1 1/4 inch slug tip. We underpump the nozzle initially to get 160 gpm at 55 psi at the nozzle, we can of course go to 200 gpm at 75 psi, or dump the combo tip and go to the 1 1/4 slug where we flow 300 gpm at around 40 psi at the tip. This system has worked for us for well over a decade. One size attack line means you never grab the wrong line.
                            Crazy, but that's how it goes
                            Millions of people living as foes
                            Maybe it's not too late
                            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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                            • #44
                              In regards to the 300' cross-lay length, what is the purpose of having such a long length of small diameter hose? I agree that that is too long for a traditional "attack line" or whatever terminology you are accustomed to. My dept services a large rural area with very sporadic hydrant placement, it is not unusual that we lay our entire bed of 4", which is what we use for supply on an "everyday" structure assignment. Now our clientele are far from being able to own "Mansions", but a moderate percent of the time, access is limited, and 200' cross-lays aren't going to do the job. That being said, we also have 200' of 2 1/2 as a "Glendale" load, with a wye on the end, this combined with a 100' high-rise pack we collectively call the "shopping mall", this evolution is the FF bread and butter, aside from just pulling the cross-lay in my dept. I could very well be wrong, and correct me if I am, but the friction loss in the 300' attack line, would be substantially greater than that of the "shopping mall" evolution if deployed, causing the engineer to pump at higher RPM's thus putting greater stress on the engine and pump. although there is a slight bit more difficulty in maneuvering 2 1/2, when the wye is positioned at the door, or just inside the door, a 2 man interior crew can easily search an entire structure with the same ease of a single attack line of 200'. I guess what I'm getting at is there is obviously 100 ways to skin this cat, whatever works for some departments may not work for mine, and the other way around. But it is the duty of us as professionals, to know what we need, what will work, and to use the tools that are provided. I agree, don't reinvent the wheel, just make it work for your situation.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by RMCMFD View Post
                                In regards to the 300' cross-lay length, what is the purpose of having such a long length of small diameter hose? I agree that that is too long for a traditional "attack line" or whatever terminology you are accustomed to.

                                Golly, I guess I'll tell our guys what we have been doing for over a decade doesn't work anymore because you say so. The truth is we can flow 300 gpm out of our 2 inch line, that is technically a medium sized attack line, at a pump pressure of 195 psi. The reason for a 300 foot 2 inch preconnect is that like any other pre-connect it is quick to put in operation and we looked at OUR community and it is what we need for some of our occupancies.

                                The funniest part is we flow more through our 2 inch at the maximum flow than most FDs flow through their 2 1/2 and the 2 inch is far easier to move with limited staffing than a 2 1/2.


                                My dept services a large rural area with very sporadic hydrant placement, it is not unusual that we lay our entire bed of 4", which is what we use for supply on an "everyday" structure assignment. Now our clientele are far from being able to own "Mansions", but a moderate percent of the time, access is limited, and 200' cross-lays aren't going to do the job. That being said, we also have 200' of 2 1/2 as a "Glendale" load, with a wye on the end, this combined with a 100' high-rise pack we collectively call the "shopping mall", this evolution is the FF bread and butter, aside from just pulling the cross-lay in my dept.

                                Your "glenadale load" would be almost worthless here. If we can't reach it with a 300 foot preconnect, we are going to our "apartment lay" which is 500 feet of 3 inch (more water at less friction loss than 2 1/2) with a gated wye with 100 feet of 2 inch attached. We carry another 100 foot bundle on the rig to either extend the first 100 feet or to add another 100 foot line. This system works for us because we have buildings that we need every inch of that 500 feet to get to the backside of them, some we need part of that 500 feet to get deep into the building with an attack line.


                                I could very well be wrong, and correct me if I am, but the friction loss in the 300' attack line, would be substantially greater than that of the "shopping mall" evolution if deployed, causing the engineer to pump at higher RPM's thus putting greater stress on the engine and pump.

                                The pump pressure for our 300 foot pre-connect flowing 300 gpm is 195 psi. That is well within the capabilities of a well maintained, properly designed, modern pumper. If it's a problem I suggest some training, better maintenance or perhaps a new rig.

                                although there is a slight bit more difficulty in maneuvering 2 1/2, when the wye is positioned at the door, orwell within the capabilities of a modern pumper. If 19e just inside the door, a 2 man interior crew can easily search an entire structure with the same ease of a single attack line of 200'. I guess what I'm getting at is there is obviously 100 ways to skin this cat, whatever works for some departments may not work for mine, and the other way around. But it is the duty of us as professionals, to know what we need, what will work, and to use the tools that are provided. I agree, don't reinvent the wheel, just make it work for your situation.

                                We do know what we need. We looked at our community and we specced our new engine for 2 inch preconnects. We set friction loss standards at specific flows for our engine that the manufacturer had to meet. Because of our larger buildings and set backs we specified both 200 and 300 foot pre-connects.
                                The thing that makes us believe this is working well is there is no one asking to go back to 1 3/4 and 2 1/2 hoselines. Is it for everyone? No, it probably isn't but the truth is that isn't our concern, our concern is what works for us.
                                Last edited by FyredUp; 12-09-2013, 06:03 AM.
                                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                                Millions of people living as foes
                                Maybe it's not too late
                                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                                Comment

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