K-500 Air Force Refueler

[LVFD301]

We use a K-500 refueler for a 5 k tanker.

Today while responding to a call, the driver had
smoke coming from the battery box. Upon stopping,
they found the wires to the light bar melted, and
I suspect the light bar is bad. 30 amp fuse did not
blow.

More importantly, after removing those wires, and
charging those batteries, when we try to start the unit
we get nothing. No relay click, no lights of any kind,
nothing.

Jumping the start solenoid gets good cranking.

The 50 amp breakers on the lower left of the dash
appear good.

Any ideas? The jump start port on the right wheel well
has 12 vdc.

[Richard]

I hope your department factored in the difference in weight between a full load of jet fuel and a load of water. There is a good possiblility the rig exceeds the permissible GVW. Read the FEMA tanker safety report.

Safe Operation of Tankers

[LVFD301]

It does exceed GVWR. Not that it matters if I cannot get it down the road.

[FWDbuff]

It does exceed GVWR. Not that it matters if I cannot get it down the road.

If it does exceed the GVWR then wtf are you guys using it for in the first place, nevermind the fact that it has electrical issues right now!

[BirkenVogt]

What the $(*# does this have to do with the problem of the truck not starting!!!!

Just help the poor man with his problem and debate the merits of converted fuel trucks in another thread. (No I don't think it's a good idea either but I am a realist.)

Anyway what you need to do is trace the electrical flow from the battery to the power switch. My guess is that the fire melted/destroyed something that goes to a main power distribution box where the ignition switch gets its power.

Birken

[nmfire]

If jump the selonoid gets it to crank, then the problem is in the starting circuit. Find the fuse that supplies the ignition switch. If it isn't blown, the something else is wrong in that system.

[LVFD301]

If it does exceed the GVWR then wtf are you guys using it for in the first place, nevermind the fact that it has electrical issues right now!

Tell me something Slick... What part of the world are you in?

Down here in the rural world, we protect around a 200 square mile area,
around 4 times that autoaid for structures. Out of that 200 square miles,
we have.... 0 hydrants. None. Nada. Zip. Not a lot of water to draft from either.

Our closest hydrant is 17 miles from our main station. We do have an old
tank at our station that holds 3,500 gallons of water.

I have a budget to run the ENTIRE department, fuel, insurance, training, maintenance - of $6,500.00 a year.

Yet, we just announced we dropped our ISO rating to an 8b. The first
rural department in our region to do so. Not the western states 8, but
the real 8b.

Now, if you don't like me using that big tanker, when are you going to deliver the small tankers to me. I need at least two. Put your money where your big ol mouth is.

We got this 5k tanker from conservation, through the federal excess
property program. Strict rules on where it is used, how it is used. It
does NOT run emergency traffic. Specific drivers. We are very cautious
about its use. If it can get us water a mile or so away from the scene,
we can shuttle. Many places it can get right up to the scene, or at least
close enough to do a hose lay. We do a lot of driver training on that
specific piece of equipment.

Oh, I know. Go tax based. Get the big bucks. Then you can afford the smaller tankers. We recently decided that is our future. When it is passed, we will see a whopping 20k a year in revenue. Wow. Call Pierce!

Let me know an estimated delivery on my new tankers. I need them quick,
I still do not have this electrical figured out.

[LVFD301]

To the REAL brothers in the fire service who have tried to offer help with this - THANKS.

I have tried to trace the wiring to the switch area, but it gets lost in the
numerous wiring looms, but am continueing on that process. I can't find
a fuse blown, but that does not mean there is one hidden somewhere.

The other confusing thing is the cab lights do not go through the
ignition switch, and they do not work either.

THANKS again.

[bjlffire]

Do you have any maint/ wiring diagrams.

I have a 5ton and foun a complete website with everything i need.

Also try a site called http://www.mil-veh.org
and join there mailing list.
You can post a question and get a lot of good info.

[LVFD301]

Thanks. Greetings from southern MO btw.

Headed to the list now

[FWDbuff]

Tell me something Slick... What part of the world are you in?

Down here in the rural world, we protect around a 200 square mile area,
around 4 times that autoaid for structures. Out of that 200 square miles,
we have.... 0 hydrants. None. Nada. Zip. Not a lot of water to draft from either.

Our closest hydrant is 17 miles from our main station. We do have an old
tank at our station that holds 3,500 gallons of water.

I have a budget to run the ENTIRE department, fuel, insurance, training, maintenance - of $6,500.00 a year.

Yet, we just announced we dropped our ISO rating to an 8b. The first
rural department in our region to do so. Not the western states 8, but
the real 8b.

Now, if you don't like me using that big tanker, when are you going to deliver the small tankers to me. I need at least two. Put your money where your big ol mouth is.

We got this 5k tanker from conservation, through the federal excess
property program. Strict rules on where it is used, how it is used. It
does NOT run emergency traffic. Specific drivers. We are very cautious
about its use. If it can get us water a mile or so away from the scene,
we can shuttle. Many places it can get right up to the scene, or at least
close enough to do a hose lay. We do a lot of driver training on that
specific piece of equipment.

Oh, I know. Go tax based. Get the big bucks. Then you can afford the smaller tankers. We recently decided that is our future. When it is passed, we will see a whopping 20k a year in revenue. Wow. Call Pierce!

Let me know an estimated delivery on my new tankers. I need them quick,
I still do not have this electrical figured out.

Tell all this to the attorneys when your tanker plows into a car at an intersection and kills someone, or rolls over and kills one of your members, and the widow sues for damages..........Just out of curiosity does your insurance provider know you are exceeding the GVWR? I bet they dont- because they probably wouldnt insure the vehicle! Or does your municipality provide your insurance? Do THEY know it exceeds the GVWR?

To answer your question, we have hydrants. We are on the outskirts of a major metropolitan region. But you go 30 miles to the north, west, east of us.....Tankers are the way of life. Converted fuel tankers USED to be the way of life, up until the mid 80's when 2 major accidents (involving 2 different converted fuel tankers)with loss of life put the stops to fuel trucks. Lawsuits were filed (rightfully so!!) Insurance providers and municipalities wouldnt insure them anymore. Everyone that had them had to get rid of them!!

Didnt mean to get your panties in a bind.....But in todays lawsuit-happy litigious world, you have to think outside the box- You came on here and knowingly admitted you were utilizing a vehicle with a specific GVWR for purposes that it was not built for, purposes that now exceed the GVWR. Have you considered, for one minute, the MASSIVE liability that you have opened yourself up to? Not only have you opened YOURSELF to liability, you have opened it for:
-Your Department
-Any of your drivers who operate the vehicle (and if I were one of your drivers, I would refuse to operate it just for this reason!)
-Any of your members who act as the company OIC anytime it leaves the station
-(possibly) the municipality that you protect
There are probably more, but you get the idea! Now, I apologize for coming on here and skewering you like this, but I just couldnt believe you openly admitted in a public forum that you know it is overweight.

Rant off. Good luck with your electrical problems. Look at the bright side- it could very well be the least of your problems. Be safe!

[bjlffire]

If you have any other info or name for this truck, I would be happy to try and find some info for you.

[LVFD301]

members, and the widow sues for damages..........Just out of curiosity does your insurance provider know you are exceeding the GVWR? I bet they dont- because they probably wouldnt insure the vehicle! !

They know. They know the truck, have seen it, etc.
[/QUOTE]
but I just couldnt believe you openly admitted in a public forum that you know it is overweight. ![/QUOTE]

It's called being truthful. If I am called to court today to testify, I would
tell them I knew that it was overweight. They would not need to look
on firehouse.com to see if I had known it. I am not going to lie about
it, espically in a court.

Integrity. What a concept.

[FyredUp]

This is just another post that clearly exemplifies the difference between the haves and the have nots in the US fire service. It is all well and good to tell a guy on here not to do something when you have enough funding to buy all proper NFPA approved equipment. But until you walk a mile in a POOR RURAL FD's shoes do not for one second believe that his situation is yours.

LVFD301 came here asking a simple question about an electrical problem on his tanker. He didn't ask to be preached to, he asked for help.

Of course it would be great if they could afford a $300K custom built pumper tanker that met every NFPA standard. But they can't and instead of doing nothing they are trying to do the best they can.

My one suggestion would be this for LVFD301 when it comes to the weight issue. Put some ballast in the tank to drop the tank cappacity down to the maximum allowable GVW. A former FD I was on had to do this with a tanker to meet DOT.

As for those military tankers they are no speed demons they are designed for on base flightline refueling, not highway speed driving.

FyredUp

[donethat]

5,000 gal. refueler

Out of curiosity, is this the type of truck you are reffering too?