Pump Issues

[Catch22]

I'm curious if anyone else has ever had, or might have some insight, on a situation we encountered with our engine at a structure fire this morning.

Without going into a long, drawn out explanation, here's what we ran into. When we put the pump into gear, niether the "Ok to Pump" lights in the cab or on the pump panel lit, but you could hear the shifter "clunk" into pump gear. We could get a little pressure when we wound up the engine, and at about 1600 RPM it felt like the transmission shifted and we'd pick up pressure.

Now here's the kicker. After the fire, we were messing with things at the station. We had a battery charger hooked up to see thinking the alternator wasn't pushing enough to charge the batteries. All of the sudden the "OK to Pump" lights come on and the primer starts whining. Got the primer shut off (you have to give it a whack to get it to disengage) and tried pumping it, since pressure kicked up at idle. Pumped like nothing was ever wrong with it!

Any clues as to what might cause this? We're looking into the alternator and the primer control as possible issues, thinking that maybe it's an electrical issue. Thought I'd see if anyone might have some insight before we tear into it hard and heavy.

[chiefengineer11]

Without looking anything up or doing any checking, one question comes to mind. Hale (including ALF), Waterous or Darley? The Hale primer switches are notorious for hanging up. I won't say it's impossible with Waterous, but their system is different. Darley I don't know anything about.

Anyway, if the primer switch was stuck in the "on" position resulting in the primer motor turning or trying to turn, I could see something weird like that happening.

Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

[Catch22]

It's a Hale, an an '89 model. I kind of wondered about if it was a hanging up issue. Sounds like a place to start at least. Thanks!

[chiefengineer11]

I'd be interested to learn from you how this plays out.

Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

[BirkenVogt]

What happened with the pump was the switch that closes when the pump shift engages did not actuate for some reason, or a wire is broke, loose connection, etc. This prevented the transmission from going into high gear "lockup" mode and allows it to shift the gears which as you discovered does not work that well when pumping, though it can be made to work.

As for the primer, I would guess that whoever was operating it when that happened was trying to get it to work, and pulled the primer, but that the primer is wired such that it will not operate unless the engine is in pump gear. (Tell me if that is true.) With the primer not operating they did not need to whack it to get it to disengage so it stayed engaged.

Finally when whatever fault caused the electricity not to flow fixed itself, the transmission went into lockup mode, and the primer found power and engaged itself until its customary whack was given.

That's my take on the situation.

Birken

[chiefengineer11]

Birken, I think we're taking two different approaches to come to the same conclusion. Definitely agreed that his transmission didn't go into direct drive and/or lockup mode. But I feel like it might have been a result of a low voltage caused by the primer motor being powered up. The clue I'm following is 22's statement that he heard the shifter "clunk." I don't think that would have occured if he had a loose wire, unless he has a pure air shift. Even then, when they cleared the other fault, the rest of it should only operate intermittently, if at all.

In my experience, Waterous primers will operate anytime, even sitting in the station with the engine off. I won't speak for Hales, except for our '78 Hahn. I put an electric dry primer on it to replace the transfer case driven rotary gear primer. I wired it to operate the same as the Waterous.

Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

[Catch22]

What happened with the pump was the switch that closes when the pump shift engages did not actuate for some reason, or a wire is broke, loose connection, etc. This prevented the transmission from going into high gear "lockup" mode and allows it to shift the gears which as you discovered does not work that well when pumping, though it can be made to work.

As for the primer, I would guess that whoever was operating it when that happened was trying to get it to work, and pulled the primer, but that the primer is wired such that it will not operate unless the engine is in pump gear. (Tell me if that is true.) With the primer not operating they did not need to whack it to get it to disengage so it stayed engaged.

Finally when whatever fault caused the electricity not to flow fixed itself, the transmission went into lockup mode, and the primer found power and engaged itself until its customary whack was given.

That's my take on the situation.

Birken

You guys aren't going to confuse me, are you?

Are you talking about the switch on the actuator? We did confirm the actuator fully, is "actuated" the right word? Anyway, it was all the way out. That's something I'll put on our list to check connections on.

One thing I did leave out, when it felt like it shifted at the 1600 RPM range, there was a noticable change in driveshaft speed. We first thought it was acting like it was low on trannie fluid.

Part of the problem may be that we've got me as a pump mechanic and another guy as a diesel mechanic that don't know much about the other's end of the spectrum. The electrician wasn't there or we might have figured it out!

I appreciate you guys' help!

[fire0099881]

Gotta love all these computer operated trucks!!

[rfdlou]

a bad ground can cause all kinds of intermittent problems.

Check all your ground connections, a bad ground can cause all kinds of intermittent problems. They get dirty, corroded and are over looked. @12 volts all connections must be clean & bright.

[FyredUp]

Look, I am no mechanic....but all electrical devices need a certain amount of power to make them work. It seems to me if the problem was solved by hooking the battery charger up then the problem is either a battery or batteries going bad or a bad charging system.

If it was a bad ground how does boosting the battery power solve that? If it was a loose wire how does the boosting the battery power solve that?

My other guess is the electronic pump shift is going bad. With the addition of the extra juice from the battery charger it worked.

My suggestion is to shift the truck into pump using the manual override and see if it engages properly. If it does the problem is simple it involves the electronic pump shift.

Give that a try and let us know if the problem still exists.

FyredUp

[rfdlou]

It is just good practice to clean & tighten battery connections before you load test the batteries & charging system. If the batteries are 3 years old chuck them. The booster charger razed the voltage above normal (about 14 volts with the engine running to as high as 15-16 volts) overcoming a low voltage problem & correcting the problem temporally. If the alternator, regulator & batteries test “good” you will have to find the cause of the low voltage else ware in the circut & loose or dirty connections are the #1 cause of problems.

[chiefengineer11]

You guys aren't going to confuse me, are you?

Are you talking about the switch on the actuator? We did confirm the actuator fully, is "actuated" the right word? Anyway, it was all the way out. That's something I'll put on our list to check connections on.

One thing I did leave out, when it felt like it shifted at the 1600 RPM range, there was a noticable change in driveshaft speed. We first thought it was acting like it was low on trannie fluid.

Sorry 'bout that. I have a bad habit of calling the primer operating device a switch, because it turns electricity on and off. Some of the stuff I grew up on, you actually had a separate switch and a prime valve that you had to operate simutaneously. Today it's all done with one device, so actuator may be a better word. But the part of the actuator that I'm concerned with in your case is the switch portion of the actuator.

Your comment about the driveshaft changing speed reinforces what I think - the transmission never got the message to go into direct drive/lockup mode. It could be from what I think or what Birken thinks. RFDLou's points are also very well taken. The number of problems that bad grounds, dirty/loose connections have caused could fill an encyclopedia. I ran into that just two days ago. I was working on part of the ignition system on a '26 ALF in the Phila. Fire Museum. Had everything connected up and tested under the hood. Went to start it from the driver's position - no go. Turns out the ground wire was off of the push switch and the other wire was loose.

Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

[Catch22]

Sorry 'bout that. I have a bad habit of calling the primer operating device a switch, because it turns electricity on and off. Some of the stuff I grew up on, you actually had a separate switch and a prime valve that you had to operate simutaneously. Today it's all done with one device, so actuator may be a better word. But the part of the actuator that I'm concerned with in your case is the switch portion of the actuator.

Your comment about the driveshaft changing speed reinforces what I think - the transmission never got the message to go into direct drive/lockup mode. It could be from what I think or what Birken thinks. RFDLou's points are also very well taken. The number of problems that bad grounds, dirty/loose connections have caused could fill an encyclopedia. I ran into that just two days ago. I was working on part of the ignition system on a '26 ALF in the Phila. Fire Museum. Had everything connected up and tested under the hood. Went to start it from the driver's position - no go. Turns out the ground wire was off of the push switch and the other wire was loose.

Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

I'm sorry man, I'm going to get confusing too. I was actually referring to the actuator in regards to Birken's reply. Assuming he meant the actuator in the gear box that shifts it from pump to road gears. I call the primer device a switch, too. Sometimes the "primer puller onner" or something like that.

I appreciated all you guys' ideas, we're going to mess with it a little more in the coming days to start ruling some things out. Especially since I'm starting to get a nice list of things it might be.

[Catch22]

It is just good practice to clean & tighten battery connections before you load test the batteries & charging system. If the batteries are 3 years old chuck them. The booster charger razed the voltage above normal (about 14 volts with the engine running to as high as 15-16 volts) overcoming a low voltage problem & correcting the problem temporally. If the alternator, regulator & batteries test “good” you will have to find the cause of the low voltage else ware in the circut & loose or dirty connections are the #1 cause of problems.

Batteries are only about a year old, if that. One thing we're looking at in a big way is the alternator. We've had some issues as of late of the lights dimming after being on scene for a a while. Truck's old enough (89) it doesn't have have a high idle setting, and it doesn't seem to help when we've got it wound up pumping. We're going to get the alternator pulled of and tested and d/c the batteries and check them, along with whatever other components we have.

I'm half afraid as I read everything it might be something loose or corroded. We got the truck from Pennsylvania (north central), so I'm not sure how much salt is present or how much issues that would cause. Including causing the primer pull switch to act up.

[firemanmikey]

We have an 87 Hale pump here in Alberta Canada. We have had problems in the last few years with the "ok to pump lights" not coming on either, although you can hear the pump engage and it will pump. A good pump operator listens to their pump and can usually tell what it's doing. As for the primer, ours likes to stick as well when being used. Not sure to as why but it does, but we don't use the primer that much either since we don't ever draft with this truck.