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  • #16
    We use heat shields. Our pumps are enclosed. On the top side is the booster reel and the genset all enclosed with aluminum diamond plate with a spring tensioned access door on each side. On the bottom are slide-in panels that have latches affixed to them. Once the late fall comes, we slide in the panels and then all of the heat from the motor passes thru the enclosure. Since we went to this in 1984 we have never had a freeze-up. We run wet pumps. In the spring we remove the panels.

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    • #17
      Okay, I am here in NH where we had some really cold weather this year, and also in past winters. What we do is after the truck has been out on a run and the pump was used, we drain the pump completely. Once the pump is done, we "winterize" the pump. That involves taking a presurized insecticide sprayer filled with an anti-freeze solution, and spraying it into all valves, opening and closing them to make sure to coat both the ball mechanism. Along with that all the caps and threads get coated so that they wont freeze shut. We started doing this about 3 years ago when we had a pump freeze in under 10 minutes, going from the station to a call, and then having a useless pump. The process takes less than 5 min with two guys, one spraying, and one opening and closing valves.
      This winter we had a stretch of about a week or so when we had -20 degree nights, only warming to about 0, and this year we had no problems with the pumps freezing.
      We did however have a problem with one of our valves, where the pump was filling up with water, so that truck we just circulated the water whenever it was on scene.

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      • #18
        We made a adapter for the 2.5 suction and "load"the pump with a gallon of alcohol.Never had a pump freeze unless it was after shutdown on a cold night.Drained and treated at anything below 40f.T.C.

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        • #19
          101 ...........how often do you do that ?>
          IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
          Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
          ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
          RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
          LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
          I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
          "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
          http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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          • #20
            Weruj,In mid to late Nov the pumps are "dosed". They are retreated after any incident in which the tank valve is opened and water flows(after the pump has been drained of course).We've never had a pump freeze enroute or when sitting at scene UNLESS the tank valve was opened and the pump "wetted".It has been so cold here that when we shut the pump down by the time we got the lines off the pump would no longer spin.This occurred while trying to drain the pump.A structure fire on a lake at about -40F with a 30 mph wind.It took about three hours in a 70f engine house with three high hat heaters running to completely thaw out that pumper.We've done this ever since I've been on the Dept so in excess of 36 years.T.C.

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            • #21
              I am not trying to stir the pot ....but with alcohol being a strong degreaser does it do any harm to the packing , gaskets etc ?
              IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
              Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
              ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
              RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
              LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
              I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
              "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
              http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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              • #22
                Stir anything you like.My 6' frame won't fit thru a 2.5 port so I can't say with certainty what it does or doesn't do.Notice in my last post we've been doing this for the better part of forty years (probably longer).Does it affect internals? Probably,and may be the reason(or part of)that we have the problems with the Darleys that we do.The pumps are "under the influence"for roughly a third of the year.I've seen a couple of pumps torn down for sand damage and our pump guy hasn't ever mentioned anything about alcohol damage.I suspect that by the time it gets done diluting in the remaining water the concentration is small enough not to cause any real problems.All I can tell you for CERTAIN is that it WORKS and until we find a better procedure we'll continue to use this one.Leaving the pumps wet isn't a bad idea but some of our responses can be in excess of twenty miles in some REALLY chilly temperatures.A neighboring town lost a pumper this year in a two day period.It was in a satellite station,was checked Fri afternoon all warm &OK but Mon morning at 7AM it was a frozen piece of scrap iron.Would the treatment have saved it?Hard telling,might have saved the pump but you would have still lost the tank.Lots of good ideas been discussed here,I know what we do is unpopular but as I mentioned it works for us.T.C.

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                • #23
                  I was mererly curious about internal damage. If it works it works, like I said I wasnt trying to give you any guff. Luckily where I am it just get that darn cold.
                  IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
                  Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
                  ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
                  RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
                  LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
                  I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
                  "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
                  http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I knew that.And I wish I could give you a more definative answer.But I can't. And best I can determine the pluses outweigh the negatives.As I'm sure you're aware Hale has a little different way of lubing/protecting their bearings and seals,packing,etc.Perhaps this design is more tolerant of our methods,I don't know. I spend enough time in crisis control research that I don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out why something WORKS;there's always enough stuff that DOESN'T to take up my available free time.Probably why I'm not a speaker on the national tour.Have a wonderful week before someone like me comes along to screw it up,Hehe T.C.

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                    • #25
                      It's that time of year!

                      -Bump-
                      Originally posted by ThNozzleMan
                      Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

                      I A C O J
                      FTM-PTB


                      Honorary Disclaimer: While I am a manufacturer representative, I am not here to sell my product. Any advice or knowledge shared is for informational purposes only. I do not use Firehouse.Com for promotional purposes.

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                      • #26
                        winterizing

                        Okay, from most of the responses I got from the East and Northern Coast it appears that most do not drain their pumps. We tried that a few years ago, problem being most pumps leak... somewhere.. so draining the pump just allows it to freeze quicker due to less water being in the pump. So we "scrapped" that idea. We chose to install heat shields, and keep our pumps circulating when out in the cold. We have had no problems, as of yet...
                        I guess I should focus more on the "human side" of the training issue..
                        Keep spare gloves/hoods with you in the apparatus at all times.
                        Place your SCBA back in the heated apparatus as quickly as possible, when not using it.
                        Brake down hoselines a.s.a.p. when you are not going to use them.
                        Keep a bucket of salt in the apparatus to spread around emergency scenes to ensure safe footing for your personnel.
                        Spray off your apparatus when returning from a run, to remove road "grime,and salt".
                        Keep spare clothes back at the FH, to change into upon returning.
                        And most important when near roadways-- Watch out for one another, we know the "morones" come out when the weather is bad, and they like to crash into almost anything.....

                        Thanks

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                        • #27
                          windchill definition

                          Here is a link for the National Weather Service and its definition and effects of Windchill. Yes, windchill can have an effect on the cooling process of the pump. It can decrease the time it takes to reach the actual air temperature, but it will not reach the windchill temperature.
                          http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/windchill...ossary.shtml#2

                          As far as wet or dry pumps, I will side with the wet pumps. I agree with the leaking valves and residual water freezing the pumps. Also, water has a higher heat capacity than air. Therefore, a pump should not reach freezing as quickly as a dry pump. The smaller amount of water will freeze quicker than the full pump.

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                          • #28
                            Although I am a fan of not draining pumps and have never seen a full pump that was left circulating freeze even on extremely cold nights...

                            According to Hale's Muscle Pump Manual (includes all Q seried fire pumps)

                            A separate maintenance checklist is provided to
                            During Freezing Weather

                            In freezing weather, drain the pump as follows:

                            1. Open all discharge and suction valves, remove suction tube caps, and discharge valve caps.
                            2. Open pump body drain cocks and/or Hale multiple drain valve.
                            3. On two-stage pumps, move the transfer valve back and forth to both the volume and the pressure positions.
                            4. After the pump is completely drained, replace all caps and close all valves.
                            Entire manual available as a PDF Here
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                            A bad day in the boat is better than a good day in the office. And in my case the office is a boat!

                            IACOJ Fire Boat 1

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                            • #29
                              Our trucks, our situation: your mileage may vary

                              Originally posted by Fire304
                              4. After the pump is completely drained, replace all caps and close all valves.
                              The manufacturer is obviously going to want to say, "NO WATER IN FREEZING TEMPS - PERIOD." If there's water in the pump and it freezes and expands, and something goes wrong, they have to worry about at minimum, bad word of mouth. Or, if it creates a parking lot/swimming pool, at worst, lives and property.

                              Of course, I don't think any of us actually believe that we can completely drain a pump, especially if it's anything other than new (and even if it is new, valves still leak). The more water you have, the longer it takes for it to freeze--especially in a metal enclosure such as a pump housing. With the thermal conductivity of the metal, it's more likely that the entire volume will need to trend towards freezing before it actually does, vs. small puddles and pools quickly freezing in the interior.

                              Obviously if you lose the heat to your station, that's a bad thing... but to do things on the assumption that this will happen is a little silly to me, unless this ROUTINELY happens at your station. And even then, I think you're better off putting your time and effort towards a more reliable heating system vs. freeze-proofing the pump.

                              I'd rather have everything chock full of water, in a nice, reliably-warm station, and circulate water when stationary. Might a gauge freeze sometime in the next 10 years? I guess it could, but to me, that's better than having your pump frozen.

                              Originally posted by RES91CUE
                              Summers in Antarctica may reach 40 degrees on a calm day, but the winter brings -30 degree days with down to -100 in serious wind! We have two Pierce engines and a 3500 gallon tender that need constant protection from the cold, but were never designed for such extremes. During calls when the temp drops below freezing, we just recirc the water in the pump using the tank fill valve. This keeps enough water moving to prevent freezing.
                              Our heated bays don't have enough room for all of the rigs, so 1 engine is always stored outside as a reserve. The tank and pump are drained, and the pump alone is filled with glycol. This seems to keep any water in the pipes and the seals from freezing, but they still get extremely cold. If we had to put the reserve in service and introduced water into the pump, it would probably freeze within seconds, rendering parts of the pump inoperable.
                              We are not sure what the effect of the glycol has on our pump packings, seals and gaskets. The pumps are not in good shape, probably because of a combination of glycol, extreme cold, and lack of professional inspection and repair techs.
                              Consequently, we are always looking to inprove out process of "winterization" in the coldest, driest, and windiest desert in the world.

                              Matt Fullerton
                              Engineer, AFD

                              This just reinforces my thoughts... no offense TC, but our county (coastal OR interior) ain't no Antarctica!
                              Last edited by Resq14; 12-14-2005, 05:14 PM.
                              God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
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                              • #30
                                blow it out??

                                What about blowing out the pump? Close and cap all valves. Remove one of the valve caps, and replace it with one that has an air line connection. Remove the cap off the lowest suction or discharge valve on the truck (but keep the valve hande in the closed position) Connect the shop air to the cap with the quick connect fitting (a pressure valve would probably help too). Fill the pump with air (I don't really know how much pressure would be needed, but pumps get pressure tested to like 400 psi don't they???) Then, when the desired pressure is achieved, quickly open the valve that you took the cap off. This should blow any excess water out of the pump I would think.

                                Anyone ever try anything like this?

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