Engage the pump issue

[FIREMECH1]

With the manual air valve, shift to center position. Hesitate for a second or two. This allows the air on the road position side of the air cylinder to vent to atmosphere.
Then shift the manual valve to the pump position. This puts air pressure on the pump side of the air cylinder and shifts the gear box shaft to pump mode.

If you have a Hale pump manual, it says to go directly from road to pump, not stopping in the center/neutral position.

Waterous is also the same. Why people say or do this, I don't know. But it does not need to stop in the center/neutral position while making the road to pump transfer.

FM1

EDIT: Looking at the pic, #2 probably says "Shift to pump".

[Trkco1]

Going along with Kuh, sometimes it helps putting it in reverse to stop the motion of the shafts. But I seriously doubt that this will help your issue.

Isn't putting the shift lever in the neutral position do the same thing? This is a serious question, I'm just trying to learn, I haven't operated a pump in years.

[chiefengineer11]

Isn't putting the shift lever in the neutral position do the same thing? This is a serious question, I'm just trying to learn, I haven't operated a pump in years.

No, that just allows the tailshaft to spin free. Touching reverse causes the transmission tailshaft to stop and actually begin to move in the opposite direction, and along with it, the input shaft to the transfer case. This, in turn, relieves the buck (or butt) tooth condition and allows the shift into pump mode to be completed.

The condition is not uncommon to new Waterous pumps and usually clears itself in a year or so. Like anything else on pumps, the more you use them the better they will work. I don't know if it happens with Hale or Darley pumps.

The neutral position is frequently used in conjunction with the shift manual override.

[Trkco1]

Thanks for the info.

[kuh shise]

donethat: while most engines still operate the speedometer when in pump gear, there are a significant number of newer, computer controlled speedometers that do not show any speed when pumping. This is a shame, as being able to check the relative speed on the speedometer can be a valuable tool to make certain that the pump is in gear and in the correct pumping gear. For others, you should make a mental note of the reading when in pump gear and at idle, then check this before exiting the cab every time you place the pump in gear. If you still have a manual transmission, and accidentally place the transmission in the wrong gear (Ex. Mack in 3rd instead of 5th) you will have a much lower speedometer reading than normal. (3 mph vs 15 mph)

[FIREMECH1]

Isn't putting the shift lever in the neutral position do the same thing? This is a serious question, I'm just trying to learn, I haven't operated a pump in years.

Putting the shift lever in the neutral position just locks it into the "last" position it was in, at the transfer case. If you go from road to neutral, the transfer case is locked into road. It kills, or locks out the air system. Conversely, if you go from road to pump, then to neutral, the transfer case is locked into pump gear.

Putting it in reverse has no bearing when you put the pump shift selector in neutral. Sometimes you do need to put the trans in reverse to be able to align the shift collars on the transfer case, to get it in pump gear.

FM1

[donethat]

Pump Shift

If you have a Hale pump manual, it says to go directly from road to pump, not stopping in the center/neutral position.

Waterous is also the same. Why people say or do this, I don't know. But it does not need to stop in the center/neutral position while making the road to pump transfer.

FM1

FM1,
I understand what the manuals say. And I have been shifting them with the hesitation for over 30 years because it works, everytime.To each their own.

[donethat]

Speedometer Reading

donethat: while most engines still operate the speedometer when in pump gear, there are a significant number of newer, computer controlled speedometers that do not show any speed when pumping. This is a shame, as being able to check the relative speed on the speedometer can be a valuable tool to make certain that the pump is in gear and in the correct pumping gear. For others, you should make a mental note of the reading when in pump gear and at idle, then check this before exiting the cab every time you place the pump in gear. If you still have a manual transmission, and accidentally place the transmission in the wrong gear (Ex. Mack in 3rd instead of 5th) you will have a much lower speedometer reading than normal. (3 mph vs 15 mph)

KuhShise,
I checked our latest new 2011 rig last night. The speedometer reads about 18 mph at idle with the pump engaged. And goes back to (o) when the trans is shifted back to neutral. Just like all the mechanical transmissions over the years. I was told the speedo signal comes from the trans computer to the J1939 gage package. I was also told this signal could be programmed to the off position. So if you have an electronic rig that does not have this capability, it could be a programming choice made by the truck manufactuer to not show this input.

[FIREMECH1]

KuhShise,
I checked our latest new 2011 rig last night. The speedometer reads about 18 mph at idle with the pump engaged. And goes back to (o) when the trans is shifted back to neutral. Just like all the mechanical transmissions over the years. I was told the speedo signal comes from the trans computer to the J1939 gage package. I was also told this signal could be programmed to the off position. So if you have an electronic rig that does not have this capability, it could be a programming choice made by the truck manufactuer to not show this input.

donethat is correct. The speedo reading has to be acknowledged through a laptop to the trans computer. Some builders turn them off, or have them turned off. Either way, with a laptop and software, you can turn it on, or have your Allison trans dealer turn it on.

FM1

[kuh shise]

Thanks!

donethat & FireMech: Really appreciate the info. Guess we need to have the Sutphen "Re-sparked" to bring up the speed-o reading. I always depended upon this when we had the old mechanical shift Macks. Never thought much about it as we advanced through the Pierce, and just thought it was the way things were when we got the Sutphen. The KME engine and aerial both read before you exit the cab. Never gave it much thought. Thanks again.

[FIREMECH1]

donethat & FireMech: Really appreciate the info. Guess we need to have the Sutphen "Re-sparked" to bring up the speed-o reading. I always depended upon this when we had the old mechanical shift Macks. Never thought much about it as we advanced through the Pierce, and just thought it was the way things were when we got the Sutphen. The KME engine and aerial both read before you exit the cab. Never gave it much thought. Thanks again.

It's all good. Thankfully my teething years were still mechanical, before being electronic. Why someone would turn off this essential tool, escapes me.

FM1

[rm1524]

It's all good. Thankfully my teething years were still mechanical, before being electronic. Why someone would turn off this essential tool, escapes me.

FM1

They turn it off so that it don't show extra miles on the truck.

[Rescue101]

If you have a Hale pump manual, it says to go directly from road to pump, not stopping in the center/neutral position.

Waterous is also the same. Why people say or do this, I don't know. But it does not need to stop in the center/neutral position while making the road to pump transfer.

FM1

EDIT: Looking at the pic, #2 probably says "Shift to pump".

It's done to give any shaft rotation time to "play out"before you reach either operating position. T.C.

[Hope FD]

Switch?

I sat in the engine last night and engaged & disengaged the pump several times. I believe I could hear the pump (pto?) engage, each time, well before the indicator lights come on.

We have had some problems with a switch that turns on the "pump engaged" light. I don't know how your switch activates, but on one of ours, it is released by a lever when the pump is put in gear. It is underneath the pump where it gets wet and full of dirt. Internally it gets rusted, and slowly will move, then seize completely.

Maybe yours is sticking, and moves when it wants. I keep spares.


As for shifting, I attended a Waterous pump class, they said to shift it all the way don't hesitate. A Hale manual I read also said the same.

The center position, as donethat said, releases the air pressure from the shift cylinders. That allows a manual pump engagement.

I haven't had to try that yet, but lever is there.

But everyone has their own way.