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  • Pumping through LDH

    This may seem like a dumb question to you city boys, but what is the best way to pump through storz LDH? We are a rural department that only drafts but come the first of the year there is a chance we could be using some hydrants that are very spread out so we would probably have to pump from the hydrant to the attack engine.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Georgetown18 View Post
    This may seem like a dumb question to you city boys, but what is the best way to pump through storz LDH? We are a rural department that only drafts but come the first of the year there is a chance we could be using some hydrants that are very spread out so we would probably have to pump from the hydrant to the attack engine.
    If you will be using hydrants, they are a positive pressure system meaning you don't have to suck it out of the hydrant, it comes to you under pressure.

    You can lay your supply line of LDH from the hydrant to the attack engine without the need of an engine in the middle, that is if the water pressure is adequate.

    You may pump through LDH just like any size hose, it's just a bigger hose.

    Some departments always operate with an engine at the hydrant pumping to the attack engine to ensure water pressure is not an issue. Personally, in my department, I am not always guaranteed enough personnel to staff a second engine. We operate the first in engine drops a hydrant person and hose at the nearest hydrant, drive to the fire and commence fire attack. The hydrant person makes the connection, and the driver advises the hydrant person they have made the connection to the truck and they can turn on the hydrant. The hydrant person then comes back to the engine to be part of the back up team.
    Jason Knecht
    Firefighter/EMT
    Township Fire Dept., Inc.
    Eau Claire, WI

    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

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    • #3
      I guess I misphrased my question... I completely understand the concept. Im just unsure of what hardware is best for the situation.

      Comment


      • #4
        Check out the friction loss information for your chosen LDH. Up to a point the loss is negligible - laying in off the hydrant and working with hydrant pressure will work just fine for you.

        Beyond a certain point you'll need to help it out a bit, usually with an engine at the hydrant. Consider your flows and the potential length of your lays.

        We are also rural and generally end up drafting, at least from a drop tank. We are surrounded by villages with hydrant systems, however, as well as Lake Ontario and the St Lawrence River. Our LDH has been off the truck for a fair number of incidents both in hydranted area and where we've been drafting.

        Another plus, LDH gives you the ability to move your tanker shuttle operation away from the fire scene, possibly even keeping it on a main road.
        Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

        Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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        • #5
          You'll want a hydrant assist valve on the hydrant. First pumper lays into the fire, a second pumper can then pump the hydrant through the HAV to maximize the water flow.

          A "Z valve" can be used inline for long lays, a Z valave opeatresin a similat fashion, allowing an engine to boost the pressure tot he attack pump.
          ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
          Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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          • #6
            You should have a gated Piston Relief Valve (PRV) on the engine's intake with a stortz fitting that matches your hose (4" or 5"). You should have a hydrant to stortz adapter for the hydrants. You may also want to get some gated wyes and a syamese. Maybe a manifold.

            Other than that, its just a big hose.
            Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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            • #7
              Oh yes, forgot that part.

              make sure you have the proper adapters and train with them before you actually need to use them for real.
              Jason Knecht
              Firefighter/EMT
              Township Fire Dept., Inc.
              Eau Claire, WI

              IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
              http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
              EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Also, most LDH is limited to 200psi. This is what limits your length. With 5" LDH flowing 1000gpm on flat ground, you are limited to about 1,800ft because more than that will require more than 200PSI at the pump discharge. As you lower the GPM, you lower the pressure and subsequently can use more and more LDH.

                By placing a relay pumper in the middle, you can double your distance.
                Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by nmfire View Post
                  You should have a gated Piston Relief Valve (PRV) on the engine's intake with a stortz fitting that matches your hose (4" or 5"). You should have a hydrant to stortz adapter for the hydrants. You may also want to get some gated wyes and a syamese. Maybe a manifold.

                  Other than that, its just a big hose.
                  I forgot that too... chalk it up to cranial flatulence.
                  ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                  Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In case you have two ways(hydrants) - have several stortz X 2-1/2" hydrant adaptors in addition to the 4-1/2" X stortz. A 3 way manifold (stortz X three - 2-1/2"males "triplex") can come in handy , have dbl females attached so it can "swing both ways"
                    ?

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                    • #11
                      And, a little trivia I figured out some time ago:

                      Five inch LDH holds about a gallon per foot. That means it weighs something over 8 pounds per foot - once it's full, it pretty much stays put.

                      And, if you lay out 1000' (which is what we carry) you'll empty your booster tank charging the line (if you're drafting from a drop tank and waiting for water, and assuming you have a 1000 gallon booster tank).

                      Also, in 5" LDH flowing 1000 GPM the water is moving at about 11 MPH. Open and close valves s-l-o-w-l-y. That's a lot of momentum.

                      That all assumes I did the math right.

                      Back on topic - make sure you have adapters to fit your neighbors as well. We have a neighboring department with 4" LDH. We have 5" LDH. We carry 4"x5" Storz adapters for that reason.

                      If you use a manifold, it should also have a pressure relief valve.
                      Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                      Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Our procedure is to not lay over 800 feet on a relay. This allows you a section or two in case you have a bad coupling or burst section. Safety is always first.

                        Plus is necessary it also allows you to get the replay pumper out of the middle or edge of the road if the road is narrow.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have a question too.

                          Is there a min flow the hydrant needs to have to use LDH. I have been told that if the flow is below 500 gpm, then it could cause problems and you would be better off laying dual 3 inch lines. Is this true?

                          Can you get 1000 GPM out of dual 3 inch lines @1000 feet?
                          Get the first line into operation.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Georgetown18 View Post
                            I guess I misphrased my question... I completely understand the concept. Im just unsure of what hardware is best for the situation.
                            You'll want some 2 1/2 to however big your house inch Storz for hooking to hydrants and for working with other departments if they don't use storz LDH. You'll need adapters for the intakes and discharges for your own engines.

                            If surrounding departments use other sized LDH you might want some storz to storz adapters to compensate for the difference in size.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by L-Webb View Post
                              I have a question too.

                              Is there a min flow the hydrant needs to have to use LDH. I have been told that if the flow is below 500 gpm, then it could cause problems and you would be better off laying dual 3 inch lines. Is this true?

                              Can you get 1000 GPM out of dual 3 inch lines @1000 feet?
                              No and no.
                              RK
                              cell #901-494-9437

                              Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

                              "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


                              Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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